Free Shipping on ALL Products
camera reviewsbest cameraslens reviewsphotography tipscamera forumvideo toursphotography bookssupport me
It is currently Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:58 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

What is more important when buying a DSLR+lens?
Noise is more important than contrast! 27%  27%  [ 4 ]
Contrast is today more important than noise! 47%  47%  [ 7 ]
Resolution is most important! 27%  27%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 15
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:20 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:08 pm
Posts: 7972
Location: Germany
Disclaimer: Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about the noise of a P&S!

But even in the realms of DSLRs we see a lot of bantering between the FF, APS-C and four-thirds camps. And Gordon does a lot of tests in the lab and real life to show us how each body performs with regard to noise.
And yes, I can see noise even at ISO200 at my D80 (which is supposed to be quite good).

So, what :!: :?:

My wife just bought a large book about the fleural creations of the frenchman Christian Tortu with photographs by Sylvain Thomas. Beautiful pics of Tortu's bouquets in large print (24x31cm).
And you know what?
I can see noise there! After that I looked into other illustrated books, and there it was again: noise and more noise...
Honestly, we should calm down in our debate about the level of noise with todays DSLRs and focus on more important topics, e.g. the contrast that a lens or cam can produce under different ligthing conditions. A serious lack of contrast can really ruin your pic and no amount of postprocessing will bring the original information and tonality back. See a gross example of that claim here:
Image
So let's get over with noise/grain!

_________________
Thomas (beware: Nikon-fanboy and moderator!) My Lens Reviews, My Pictures, My Photography Blog
D800+assorted lenses


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:21 pm 
Interesting topic, couldn't agree more with you. I actually like noise in some situations it can create a real great artistic effect. I would also say the color a lens produces is a great factor.

But I really can't vote on this one it's too hard a question :( Most of the time noise is not an issue and sometimes it's a great effect but sometimes it's a great luxury to have a low noise camera. So I would still like to have a FF with low noise if I could choose but noise would not be the primary factor when upgrading my camera (with FF I would also be able to push the resolution on my lenses more).


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:09 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:08 pm
Posts: 7972
Location: Germany
Is there a standard contrast test out there?
I understand that MTF-tests have to do with both resolution and contrast, but I can't interpret the results, really.
Also there is the factor of reactin to light-sources inside the pic or outside but shining into the lens that can seriously degrade contrast. That, as I have heard, varies greatly by the exact angle at whihc the light source shines into the lens.
But esp. at wide-angle lenses you almost never can avoid lot's of light streaming into the lens, even if it's not the sun.
So perhaps we could have as a standard test a shot of some fine structures (like the twigs of a bare tree against some well-lit sky) and find out, how black the blacks can be with each lens when the sky is exposed just short of saturation!?
Any ideas?

_________________
Thomas (beware: Nikon-fanboy and moderator!) My Lens Reviews, My Pictures, My Photography Blog
D800+assorted lenses


Last edited by Thomas on Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:59 pm 
noise imo can enhance a picture i belive it depends on what you are shooting though.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:36 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:08 pm
Posts: 7972
Location: Germany
Gordon, we need a black hole :!:
This is the imatest standard to measure "Veiling glare", as they call it and it just sounds like the test to get some feeling for the contrast of a lens/cam-combo.
http://www.imatest.com/docs/veilingglare.html

_________________
Thomas (beware: Nikon-fanboy and moderator!) My Lens Reviews, My Pictures, My Photography Blog
D800+assorted lenses


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:30 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:08 pm
Posts: 7972
Location: Germany
There is also a nice comparison here: http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MT ... kins_tests
which shows that a Nikon D100 at ISO200 already had less noise/grain plus was sharper than a high-quality 35mm ISO100 film :shock:
(This is) Another argument that with current 10MP APS-C sensor DSLRs resolution and noise are no longer the most important factors in judging IQ.

_________________
Thomas (beware: Nikon-fanboy and moderator!) My Lens Reviews, My Pictures, My Photography Blog
D800+assorted lenses


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:40 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:08 pm
Posts: 7972
Location: Germany
As to the "black hole" from Imatest: Why not revers it and shoot a great black carton with a "white hole" (i.e. a flashlight) in it?
You can then analyse the blackness of the black when a single strong light-source shines into your lens.
There is also no need of the black carton to be uniformely lit like the original version of the "black hole"-test :)
Andit is an effective test of the dynamic range the the cam/lens-combination can produce in harsh contra-light.
See a real-world example of something similar to this "white hole"-test:
Image

_________________
Thomas (beware: Nikon-fanboy and moderator!) My Lens Reviews, My Pictures, My Photography Blog
D800+assorted lenses


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:40 am
Posts: 1330
Location: Scotland
I voted for more contrast. Was that the right choice :lol:

Contrast is definitely the most important element in my best photos. I'm trying to create contrasty pics all the time but only sometimes is it successful. Noise is not something I come across in my pictures too often but I agree that if it were one or the other I'd take contrast every time.

Having said that, to be perfectly honest I just work with whatever I have at the time.

Zorro.

_________________
http://zorrofox4.deviantart.com/

Image

Various lenses, SB800 & Manfrotto 190 with 460MG head


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:06 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:08 pm
Posts: 7972
Location: Germany
Good boy, Zorro! You earn a pat on the back :wink:
But I knew that you would say that. Looking at your love with dark HDR-photos, I had supposed that you don't like a washed out look from too little contrast 8)

_________________
Thomas (beware: Nikon-fanboy and moderator!) My Lens Reviews, My Pictures, My Photography Blog
D800+assorted lenses


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:04 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:08 pm
Posts: 7972
Location: Germany
B.t.w.: A "white hole" has another benefit against a "black hole":
You can measure over a large area how the light influences the blacks, as most of the pic should be pitch black. With the "black hole" only a small area in the pic is pitch black.
Why is measurement over a larg area important: because flaring and ghosting may occur only in a few spots and not over the complete area. With a large area to measure you're sure to find the places, whereas with a small area you may completely miss the critical places!

_________________
Thomas (beware: Nikon-fanboy and moderator!) My Lens Reviews, My Pictures, My Photography Blog
D800+assorted lenses


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:48 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:32 pm
Posts: 9975
Location: Queenstown, New Zealand
Hi Thomas, not quite sure where your 1000th post took place, but congratulations on it! Sadly Dux Delux does NOT sell any of its beers in bottles and the fresh stuff apparently also goes off in a few days, so not sure how I can get any to you... maybe I'll just have one for you...

In terms of contrast, thanks for all the suggestions - I'll have a think about it, but if you have any other bright ideas, do let me know!

Gordon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:22 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:08 pm
Posts: 7972
Location: Germany
Thanks, Gordon. Just have one in memory of that lovely evening...

As to suggestions, I'm full of it. I can envisage a similar diagram to your light fall-of diagramm, delineating spaces of equal darkness on the black carton and showing figures of how much the real EV is above a perfect 0.
Also I think it's crucial to test with a light pointing within the fov but not from the middle and one pointing perhaps 20% outside of the fov towards the lens so as to have an impression on both situations.
You may also rotate the light-source around for "most ugly effect", if you can already see it in the viewfinder.

As an example where both lenses seem to be equal in terms of MTF50 is the Nikon 12-24mm and the Tokina 12-24. If you look at Klaus Schroiff's website, they're pretty comparable in this department, but as Klaus points out and Ken Rockwel acknowledges, in contra light the Tokina is really bad whereas the Nikon (costing double that) is pretty good.
And with a wide-angle lens you really seldom have the choice to prevent all the sky-light from entering your lens...

_________________
Thomas (beware: Nikon-fanboy and moderator!) My Lens Reviews, My Pictures, My Photography Blog
D800+assorted lenses


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:08 am 
Seems to me that noise is becoming so marginal in SLRs, and noise reduction so sophisticated, that contrast is going to be the issue of the future.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:49 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:08 pm
Posts: 7972
Location: Germany
Don't forget lorriman, the noise-reduction is only one part of the equation, but that a low-noise sensor and processor is at least equally important. But all these important factors are at a very high (quality-)level in todays APS-C cameras, that I would not really worry any longer (about noise that is) ...

_________________
Thomas (beware: Nikon-fanboy and moderator!) My Lens Reviews, My Pictures, My Photography Blog
D800+assorted lenses


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron

All words, images, videos and layout, copyright 2005-2012 Gordon Laing. May not be used without permission.
/ How we test / Best Cameras / Advertising / Camera reviews / Supporting Camera Labs

Webdesign by Alphabase IT
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group