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 Post subject: Standard settings
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:06 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 89
Location: Wales
Hi Guys

Why do manufacturers seem to avoid the middle ground regarding jpeg IQ

1. When reviewers have reviewed the K10d compared to the Nikon D80 many stated that the need to tweak the K10's settings was a negative but now Nikon appear to have moved more in the direction of less contrasty colours etc - a move towards the IQ of the K10D.

Pentax have of course gone the other way with the K20, however the jpeg iq is an improvement over the k10 but probably needs to be reduce a little in terms of sharpness/ contract etc (opposite of the K10).

2. WHilst the D80 was said to have a better metering system it was still noted to blow highlights more often than the K10 this also seems to be the case with the D90 - whatever happened to 'expose for the highlights and the shadows will take care of themselves' (especially usefull for raw mode on the K10)

I am of course bias towards the K10 but having looked at a few of the reviews of the Nikon D90 I would say that the D80 was probably better in terms of IQ than the D90 and whilst the D80 may have blown highlights the D90 seems to misbehave a little more in this respect.

It just seems strange to me that a company such as Nikon would decide to produce less vibrant pictures with the newer camera yet allow it to blow highlights more often.

It also seems strange to me that Pentax have maybe taken the jpeg output a little far - it seems that the middle ground seems to be left out??

Lets face it, owners of the K10 may find themselves adding some positive exposure compensation (I find it best left a lone then tweak the raw file) and D90 owners will find themselves using negative exposure compensation - this is not exactly a major issue but why the change ?

My mind boggles at the thought that a company as good as Nikon let their enthusiast dslr blow highlights whilst Pentax have kept with the slight underexposure to avoid this (Pentax should be commended for this but is often given as a negative??)- surely Nikon must realise that enthusiasts realise that blown highlights are much more of an issue than having to raise midtones/ shadow areas etc) underexposure??

Almost at the end of my rant - honest

Personally I believe that the middle ground may be best for the standard Jpeg and let people change this if the wish, ie Pentax restrain the successor to the K20 a little but not as restrained as the K10 and Nikon should deal with the highlights a little better - whilst this may produce a rather boring middle gound position at least people would not be put off what is otherwise great camera by reviewers pulling apart these problems (and long may reviewers do this to give us accurate info), for example some may be put off the D90 for one reason (highlights and having to adjust settings) as people may have been put off the K10 as they did not want to have the bother of changing the jpegs settinsgs.

Why do camera manufacturers produce camera's that need attention straight out of the box as surely this will put some first time buyers off ? - I suspect that more experienced soles will know that the required changes are easier and not that much bother.

What are your thoughts guys.

_________________
K10D + optimistic idiocy

My pic's - http://www.flickr.com/photos/10126769@N05/


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:07 am 
I do not have personal experience with Nikon or Canon, i met them only while looking at various and numerous expert reviews.
when i was choosing a camera, I was against Pentax as a brand. however everytime i saw a picture that just cought my attention, by its specific tones and colors, and a darker tone (no tendency of blowing out the highlights), when i checked the Exif, many times i had to witness that the photo was taken by pentax dslr mostly K10D. i kept ignoring that fact and looked at sony, canon, nikon. however because of simple accident i bought K10D and simply after several days fell in love with it.


i hate when taking pictures, you get blown out highlights it's the worst thing to me..
yet, with pentax, it's such a rare thing, that it's not an issue to me anymore..

i absolutely love the design of the camera, the ergonomics of the buttons and the availability of customization. it's clear that the camera was designed, of course not by photographers although it seems so, but certainly to photographers having in mind their needs, wants and shooting styles..

i might also be a little subjective toward pentax now, but remember i was against it as a brand before. And now I'm feeling kind of insulted when reviewers rate K10D worse because of it's dull default jpeg quality. It's a simple matter of taste. you cannot judge me if i like sour more that sweet, or hot or etc.. and by underexposure pentax grant more details to be captured and being able to work with later..
I justify pentax, for leaving default jpeg quality as really neutral..
why to make it contrasty, saturated and sharp, when there's a scale of positive and negative.. the middle is the middle. when at one end is white and on the other is black.. the grey seems to be the middle, isn't?

Stuey, you say that it's not the middle.. well for me, it's a good middle.

I totally love K10D image quality, and if to critisize K10D, then surely not on that point.
maybe you can touch fps, that isn't that impressive as nikon's or canon's.. maybe battery indicator is a bit strange, maybe dust removal isn't that effective, or shake reduction, not effective as some other systems, yet, i personally am satisfied with how it works. what else..
maybe ISO 1600 isn't that good as i'd want to.. but certainly not the quality of default jpeg or in general jpeg quality.
maybe you could touch the point about flash in high speed shooting. (for more advanced users)

but not the jpeg quality because it's so easily adjustable either with computer software or of being a just little conscious of the camera..
and for example for it's build quality pentax should get some extra points, because it certainly is one the best in it's class or price tag.

well maybe i went a little out of topic, but it was also a confession, that i had a negative attitude toward the pentax, just by not knowing it. and getting to know it, turned all up side down..

even though still o do not in love with the exact name - Pentax,because of how it sounds, i certainly love the actual products.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:36 am 
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Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 12:39 pm
Posts: 601
Location: France
Bonsoir,

I'd like to bring just just another perspective :!:

The real fun with cameras like the K10D is freedom. Freedom to pick the right settings, freedom to try and learn, freedom to trust the camera or not, freedom to fine-tune the manual settings, freedom to dicover new combinations, freedom to play :) When I'm in a hurry and rely on automatic settings, if IQ is not there, I couldn't blame but myself :?

That's why I went for the K10D: looking for freedom. And that's why I'm happy with that camera. And taht's why I don't recommend changing camera every year, since freedom requires a learning curve :wink:

The perfect camera doesn't exist, but the true photographer does. He/She takes the most out of his/her camera and makes wonders :!: On that point, I'm just an amateur :)

_________________
--- rei_vilo
Pentax K-5 + BG4 + DA* 16-50 + DA* 50-135 + DA* 60-250 + AF-540FGZ
reivilophotography.weebly.com


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:29 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 89
Location: Wales
Hi Guys

I'm not knocking the K10d at all merely pointing out that reviews knocked it but now the d90 has moved in the k10d direction regarding the jpeg quality (ie not as contrasty or bright as the D80) it does not seem to be pointed out as much - why ?? who knows ??

I agree with mystic in that not having to worry about blown highlights (as much as it can happen) is excellent and I do not understand why Nikon leave their users open to this problem - it just puzzles me almost as much as some reviewers will almost skip the issue as if it is not a problem yet the K10d seemed to be knocked a lot for the dull jpegs (without blown highlights)

Let's face it a d80/ k10/ d90 or most others can be customised (some more than others) and can produce excellent results it just seems to me that by in doing the right thing (underexposing slightly to preserve highlights) is seen as such a negative when blowing highlights (which is far worse) seems to escape the same kind of criticism.

The d90 seems to have moved towards the k10 style of slightly less contrasty jpegs yet they have moved the other way with the metring system - I don't undretsand why and just wondered if anyone can maybe point me in the right direction.

My other pointis why don't the manufacturers head for a middle ground and avoid losing potential customers regarding the jpegs quallity and why chance blowing highlights which affects jpeg and raw although raw files are usually more recoverable.


Incidentally - I wouldn't change the k10 (although I am a little suspicsious that the firmware 1.30 upgrade may have altered the jpeg processing a tad an not mentioned this) I am not considering changing my K10d - not a chance :D

_________________
K10D + optimistic idiocy

My pic's - http://www.flickr.com/photos/10126769@N05/


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:54 pm 
well i guess the reviewers are affected by the brand name, such as Nikon, and if it does something unusual, they first try to find some positive thing in it, while such company as pentax does something in its own way, they first try to find some negative sides of it..

well it's of course my humble opinion..

yeah Stuey, agree with you, on many points..

And Rei_Vilo statement about freedom, fits the pentax approach.. for example Sv, And TAv modes are uniquely for pentax cameras,and they certainly give more freedom to the user.. Sv mode I find extremely useful.. while TAv, i've never actually tried, but isn't it's the same as manual mode, with ISO set on auto..? :)

I left my firmware, on 1.20 do I lose something? or I gain something? :) what are your opinions?

Stuey, you say, you wouldn't change your K10D.. are you sure? you mean between D80,D90.. or what?
because, I for example like new features, and actually waiting for the announcement of K30D.. however i believe, that because of my budget, anyway, i'll get K20D, next year when i'll see that the price is right, and I believe it'll be lower in the next year.. because of the announcement of the new model.. I like all the features in K10D, and want K30D with new features added better characteristics implied, and as refined as K10D, because i think K20D liveview, is a huge flaw. what matters such nonsensious things as default jpeg quality, it's so unimportant if you really look at photography more than just point and shoot thing..

i believe reviewers should have some priorites to qriticism.. for example deduct much for something like K10D case Df. Jpg quality, is not right, because it doesn't mean, that the camera is bad, worse or something..
while deduct for the general image quality, noise, that is totally understandable..
and to my opinion, if to compare, Sony A350, A300, K10D K20D.. both in noise and in general image quality, built quality sony is behind.
but for example Gordon's review in K10D for image quality gets 15, while A300 17, A350 18..
what about built quality you check yourselves.. what is the situation among these models..
it seems Gordon on some points compare Pentax KXXD with Canon XXD, And nikon DXXX, while on other points with sony and olympus..
weird..

I admire Gordon for what he is doing i find it very useful, and I'm thankful to him. but sometimes it's misleading to compare his percentages.. among cameras..


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:12 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 89
Location: Wales
Hi Guys

Sorry for the delay in the reply but when I say that I would not change my k10d I mean I wouldn't change it - and I mean at all! (except for a full frame Pentax if it existed)

I lean't my camera to my employers last night (for a charity ball) and they placed it in the hand's of an ex pro photographer - yes I was panicking as I had let it out of my sight and in to the hands of a pro (let's face it pro's tend to treat their camera's a little more harshly than us amateurs) - but no worries

The camera came back without a scratch (as far as I can see) and the feedback was 'thanks for the fabulous camera' - it appears to be good feedback from someone who used to used to be a pro :D

I was worried that if anything happened to my camera this it would be replaced with the K20, don't get me wrong I was not worried at all about my employers as I trust that they would have replaced it ASAP it's just that I believe that the k10d is more suited to what I want.

I will look at a replacement in a few years (or earlier if the k10 fails etc) but I am hoping to wait for a full frame model and expect to wait a while.

For the record I am not impressed with the pixel race - I just hope that should Pentax make a full frame model that they keep the pixel count to a point whereas the noise to signal ratio is as it should be - I trust them - I hope others do.

Cheers

:D

_________________
K10D + optimistic idiocy

My pic's - http://www.flickr.com/photos/10126769@N05/


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:47 am 
I think Pentax is trying to complete its DA lens line up before going FF. We need these first: 170-400mm f4, 30mm f1.4, 55mm f1.4, possibly 90mm f2-2.8, 135mm f2-2.8.

These lenses would be close to the 35mm equivalent of 250-600/4, 50/1.4, 85/1.4, 135 and 200. The last two is already covered by DA* 50-135 so we might not need them.


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