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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:04 pm 
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Go easy on me please its my first post

I'm stepping up from a compact and whilst I had a film slr years ago I've never had a dslr and after ruling out compact system and the Pentax K5 and Nikon d7000 I'm torn between the new 650d, the 60d (7d would limit lenses I can budget for an maybe too complex for me to get good shots)

Other than general family shots I want to get into macro work, wildlife and potentially some action shots as well as images of my reef aquarium and its inhabitants. Video isn't really a priority and I have a budget of around £1500 for the system

My dilemma is which is the better camera for stills work not video and would either suit my needs.

As I see it the 650 is the latest tech, has the hybrid a/f for better live view and video, touchscreen and a burst rate close to the 60d and is smaller and lighter

On the other hand the 60d has a better build, slightly better burst rate, larger buffer size, better viewfinder, top lcd and more direct access buttons.

The 7d produces better IQ than both the above and better burst, better a/f and more settings/controls for an advanced user though maybe more difficult to use for a novice in order to get good quality images??

Will the 650 allow me to take action shots and do the wildlife stuff I want?

Will the new hybrid a/f system compromise focus speed when using the v/f and non stm lenses? and is it better for maintaining focus on moving objects

Will the live view a/f of the 650 better that of both the 60 and 7d?

In the real world shooting how much difference does the buffer size make?



I'm thinking of the following lenses to compliment either of the bodies

Canon 15-85

Tamron 70-300 Di VC USD zoom or Canon 70-300 IS USM or Canon 50-250mm

Is either of the 300s worth the premium over the 50-250

and

either the tokina 2.8 100mm Macro or tamron 90mm macro or the Canon 100mm


Sorry for the length of the post and all the questions

All comments and thoughts most welcome, thank you


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:09 pm 
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Reefman wrote:
Go easy on me please its my first post


I'll just make short answers :D And colorful ones!

Quote:
My dilemma is which is the better camera for stills work not video and would either suit my needs.

Are you going to shoot more JPG or more RAW? In JPG the 650D has the best internal processing. ("latest tech")


Quote:
On the other hand the 60d has a better build, slightly better burst rate, larger buffer size, better viewfinder, top lcd and more direct access buttons.

Just slightly. It's bigger and better weather sealed.
I guess you couldn't really tell the difference any more.
Yes.
Yes... but it's not such a dramatical difference.
Yes.


Quote:
The 7d produces better IQ than both the above and better burst, better a/f and more settings/controls for an advanced user though maybe more difficult to use for a novice in order to get good quality images??

No.
Yes.
No. The same settings can be done just as easy as with cheaper cameras. You just get more possibilities that might be harder to learn but that's just the "additional" stuff.



Quote:
Will the 650 allow me to take action shots and do the wildlife stuff I want?

Yes. That's the big advantage of the 650D over the 600D.

Quote:
Will the new hybrid a/f system compromise focus speed when using the v/f and non stm lenses? and is it better for maintaining focus on moving objects

No. It's just an additional AF sitting on the main sensor. It doesn't affect the "normal" AF. STM lenses just have a new kind of motor; they can be used on older cameras as well as lenses with other motors will focus on the 650D in either mode. STM lenses just focus smoother, which is nice for videos.
Main AF sensor: yes. Hybrid AF: Works in Live View only and it's more precise than the "normal AF" but it still takes longer.

Quote:
Will the live view a/f of the 650 better that of both the 60 and 7d?

Yes.

Quote:
In the real world shooting how much difference does the buffer size make?

Well... hard to answer. Depends on your kind of shooting.



Quote:
I'm thinking of the following lenses to compliment either of the bodies

Canon 15-85

Good choice.

Quote:
Tamron 70-300 Di VC USD zoom or Canon 70-300 IS USM or Canon 50-250mm

Is either of the 300s worth the premium over the 50-250

The Tamron is. It's a very sharp lens, newest generation and you could even use it on a full frame body if you wanted to upgrade in the future.

Quote:
either the tokina 2.8 100mm Macro or tamron 90mm macro or the Canon 100mm

All those lenses are pretty sharp. You can't go wong with any of them. Personally I'd rather go for 100mm than for 90mm - sometimes every cm you can stay further away from whatever you want to take shots of is a good cm. ;)


Quote:
Sorry for the length of the post and all the questions

All comments and thoughts most welcome, thank you

No problem! ;) I hope I could help.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:39 pm 
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42.

But honestly - would i take 650D now, when i have my 60D? No. It is bigger, feels better and has some more functions i love (top lcd at most).

but it depends on your preferences, it might feel big in your hands (in the beggining my problem also, but i got used to it and not anything xxxD feels too small... )

optically you can get same photos from both.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:54 pm 
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Thanks - Jiko - very good colour definition :D

That's helpful in many ways though its brought the 7d into the equation as I could drop the macro lens for now and get it later and still do the 15-85 and Tammy 300 back to that later.

You mentioned the 650 big advantage over the 600d is its ability for action shots - sorry to query this but did you mean the 600 or 60d?

Between the 650 and 60 which will be better for action work or are they equally as capable from your reply I assume you are saying the 650 due to its a/f with moving subjects as you mention later but not as good as the 7d?

I'm not sure I understand this as from what you said the advantages of the new hybrid are in live view and video but for normal a/f don't both have 11 points? so why would the 650 be better?

and how much of an advantage will the Digic 5 be over the 4 on the 60d?

OK bear with me......now the 7d

Isn't the focusing difficult to set up for good results?

What does the forthcoming firmware upgrade offer?

Is the lack of a swivel lcd screen an issue ?

Is the body of the 7d substantially heavier/bigger than the 60d? (I've handled both the 600 and 60d and both felt fine in the hand)

so where I am now is

whilst video isn't an issue and the 650 will do my action stuff - its got the latest processor lower high iso noise (or has it?) plus some other modes for novices like me - why should I buy either of the others?

cheers


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:47 pm 
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Reefman wrote:
You mentioned the 650 big advantage over the 600d is its ability for action shots - sorry to query this but did you mean the 600 or 60d?

I really meant the 600D. The 650D has the same AF as the 60D. No difference there.

Quote:
Between the 650 and 60 which will be better for action work or are they equally as capable from your reply I assume you are saying the 650 due to its a/f with moving subjects as you mention later but not as good as the 7d?

AF: 650D = 60D < 7D

Quote:
I'm not sure I understand this as from what you said the advantages of the new hybrid are in live view and video but for normal a/f don't both have 11 points? so why would the 650 be better?

As to be seen above. The 650D just offers the hybrid AF additionally - and this one works in Live View and in the video mode only.

Quote:
and how much of an advantage will the Digic 5 be over the 4 on the 60d?

Better JPG processing within the camera. If you shoot RAW you will hardly see a difference.

Quote:
OK bear with me......now the 7d

Isn't the focusing difficult to set up for good results?

It is a bit more complex indeed but as you can see what AF points are chosen it's not too hard. With the other cameras you'd probably use either one AF point or all. Servo (follow the subject) or One Shot (once it's sharp focusing stops). You can do the same with the 7D and then there are more "fine tuning capabilities".

Quote:
What does the forthcoming firmware upgrade offer?

In-camera RAW processing, RAW-buffer: 15 shots --> 25 shots, volume control in the video mode... yeah... should be the main points.

Quote:
Is the lack of a swivel lcd screen an issue ?

Depends on what you are shooting. Some situations in which I missed it:
- Macro. If the subject is low a screen like that can come handy.
- I put the camer on a tripod and held it high above a crowd of people using a remote shutter release. With a swivel screen and live view it's easy to see what's oing on and how the result might look. A normal screen is just out of sight.

Quote:
Is the body of the 7d substantially heavier/bigger than the 60d? (I've handled both the 600 and 60d and both felt fine in the hand)

Slightly bigger and noticably heavier. It's a metal body while the 60D has a lighter polycarbonate shell.

Quote:
the 650 will do my action stuff - its got the latest processor lower high iso noise (or has it?) plus some other modes for novices like me - why should I buy either of the others?

Lower noise in JPG only. The RAW files are not really different. But yes: If I had to choose between the 650D and the 60D I'd probably go for the 650D (or wait for the 70D ;) ), mainly because of the live view AF, the touch screen, which can speed up the handling, and last but not least the slightly lower price.
The 60D is pretty good as well. The main advantages of the 60D are the upper screen, the better battery and a slight weather sealing.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:53 pm 
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EDIT: Damned netbook. Hardly an internet connection and a weird keyboard. Back at the desktop computer.

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Canon EF 28-80mm 3.5-5.6 USM + EF 24-105mm 4L IS USM + EF 100-400mm 4.5-5.6L IS USM + EF 50mm 1.8 II + EF 100mm 2.8L Macro IS USM + Sigma 12-24mm 4.5-5.6 EX DG HSM + Canon Speedlite 580 EX II + Nissin Speedlite Di 466


Last edited by Jiko on Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:31 pm 
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Jiko wrote:
Reefman wrote:
Is the body of the 7d substantially heavier/bigger than the 60d? (I've handled both the 600 and 60d and both felt fine in the hand)

Slightly bigger and noticably heavier. It's a metal body while the 60D has a lighter polycarbonate shell.

Just to add to that, while the 7D is substantially heavier, try not to take that at face value. With a larger lens, the 7D can feel extremely balanced.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:30 am 
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Personally, for 'images of aquarium inhabitants', I'd like something faster and wider (especially on a crop frame) than you currently have listed. e.g. Canon's 50mm f1.8 II is a popular choice due to it's good IQ and low price. And although the AF is relatively noisy, I don't see why that would bother the fish.

Mark


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:34 am 
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Thanks guys some great stuff there - but still not sur which way to go

Wish there were full 650 reviews out there Ill try to get hold of a 7d to check size weight

Jiko - you said 650 over 60 but what about 7d? Would you still go y650 over that? And whens the 70d due out

My concerns witb them are

7d Id find it too complex /heavy /wish I had swivel screed (is lcd res same on all?)

60d wish I had the newer model with bells whustles

650 wish I had better action capabilities buffer battery v/f might outgrow and need to upgrade quickly

Arghhhh -

On lens front for aquarium would I be better served with a 50 or the macro the tank is extremely bright

decisions decisions


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:50 am 
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Reefman wrote:
And whens the 70d due out

Any answer to that right now would be pure speculation.

Reefman wrote:
My concerns witb them are

7d Id find it too complex /heavy /wish I had swivel screed (is lcd res same on all?)

I had the same concern about the 7D being complex but I felt that wasn't the case in practice. I found it very easy to use out of the box. As Jiko said, the additional feature sets are for additional fine tuning.

No, the resolution isn't the same. The 650D, 600D and 60D have about 1040k dot screens whereas the 7D has about 920k dots.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:20 am 
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Rorschach wrote:
Reefman wrote:
And whens the 70d due out

Any answer to that right now would be pure speculation.

OK, my speculation is: in the end of this year; maybe september.
Quote:
No, the resolution isn't the same. The 650D, 600D and 60D have about 1040k dot screens whereas the 7D has about 920k dots.

And the 1040k screens do have a 2:3 ratio so the image if filling the frame while you have a black bar in the 920k screen, further reducing the resolution. Still the 920k screen is quite good as well. It's the same as on the 500D / 50D.
The 7D is quite a professional camera and it's very robust. I guess I might prefer it over the other ones.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:38 pm 
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The 7D was an amazing camera when it came out, but the Rebel series is starting to compete with it with the 650D. The 7D is bigger, better built, and offers a bit more professional feel to it, which is usually not a bad thing. The 650D offers the swivel screen. Both offer similar 18mp sensors. If you shoot mostly in live view, I think the 650D would offer a better performance because of the new hybrid system. If you shoot mostly using the viewfinder, I suspect the 7D viewfinder is probably a bit bigger and easier to see through.

But overall both would be a good choice, and the price gap between the two is starting to get smaller to reflect how similar a performance both can offer.

I personally always felt like the 60D was a bit redundant in the lineup. It's not a bad camera, but I feel it doesn't offer much that the Rebel series doesn't offer, and then you have the 7D sitting right on top of it price wise. For some people the 60D makes sense, but for me it wouldn't.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:47 pm 
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Thanks guys

At the start of my research I was thinking 600d or Nikon 5100 even briefly of 3200.

I then discovered the 650 which Id almost decided on and it took the 600 out of the reckoning.

I did think Id be paying a premium for video enhancements that I dont need at the cost of stills performance though comments suggest that isnt the case.

The 7d was something of an afterthought great reviews but I guess this was just that I could afford it not that I needed or even would use it to its max and to buy it would compromise my choice of lenses in budget

So I think Im saying its back to either the 60 or 650 and something telling me if I can do some action and wildlife stuff with the 650 which it appears I can then that would be the better choice or would it? Im sure Id resort to the vf for composing shots not the lcd is it that much poorer than the 60d?

Thanks again for all the help so far


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:17 pm 
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Reefman wrote:
So I think Im saying its back to either the 60 or 650 and something telling me if I can do some action and wildlife stuff with the 650 which it appears I can then that would be the better choice or would it?

I'd say it's debatable. For me, the 60D's only appreciable benefits are its larger body and its top LCD screen. With phase detection AF in Live View and 9 cross-type AF points, I think the 650D presents a stronger case for buying it instead of the 60D than the 600D or 550D could manage.

Reefman wrote:
Im sure Id resort to the vf for composing shots not the lcd is it that much poorer than the 60d?

"Worse" is probably not an appropriate word but the 60D does have a larger viewfinder and slightly more coverage.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:57 pm 
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Rorschach wrote:
"Worse" is probably not an appropriate word but the 60D does have a larger viewfinder and slightly more coverage.

I once put the 600D (same viewfinder as 650D) and the 60D - both with the same lens - at my eyes at the same time and: Well... yes... the 60D's viewfinder is slightly bigger but it's not like it's twice the size or something like that. Maybe 5-8% bigger? Nothing I'd really care about.

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