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 Post subject: RAW video?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:17 pm 
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I'm currently awaiting my astro-imaging CCD which gives, effectively, raw video at just above 720p at 15fps. The thought occurs, are there any consumer level cameras that support any kind of raw video output? I'll even consider hacked - does magic lantern or whatever the Panasonic thing is do anything like that? My definition of a consumer level camera would be something priced below a full frame stills cameras.

Failing that, are there near-lossless formats that can be found instead? I'm thinking for example low compression mjpeg or if you must use a more modern codec then it would need to be forced into all I-frames, again at low compression. The key basic requirement here is that every individual frame needs to be stills quality.

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 Post subject: Re: RAW video?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:39 pm 
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I've never heard of RAW video :D It's an interesting idea if it would allow you to manipulate video in the same way you could RAW photos.

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 Post subject: Re: RAW video?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:18 pm 
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None of these options are in my budget, so I haven't looked enough into this to have an option I would actually recommend, but here's a few you can look into.

If I remember correctly, one of the new Nikon cameras (either D4 or D800) allows for raw HDMI output, but you need an external recorder to record that HDMI input.

There was also an interesting option presented at NAB which offered 2.5k raw for like 3000$, called BlackMagic I believe. Not sure if it's out already though.

The other options I can think of are all in the 7000$+ range, but some could offer up to 4k resolution, and there might even be a 5k camera out already with RAW.

When dealing with RAW, you'll have to allow a TON of storage space for those videos, and a killer computer to edit them in a timely fashion.

If it's for a specific shot you have in mind, you can most probably rent the camera + lens + editing hardware, and they'll sometimes even show you the basics of how to operate it, and of the 4k RAW workflow.

2011 was the year of 3D at NAB, but 2012 was the year of 4k and RAW.

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 Post subject: Re: RAW video?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:26 am 
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Some interesting suggestions there, but totally misses my budget limit originally posted :)

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 Post subject: Re: RAW video?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:09 pm 
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Hi popo,

RAW as in not de-Bayered? As I understand it most, if not all, stills cameras produce video by sampling only some of the pixels rather than binning blocks of pixels so I'm not sure what would be gained by doing the de-Bayering outside the camera.

Or is it bit depth you are after? There are a number of high bit depth video formats out there (examples) but I don't think we are talking consumer level cameras.

That said, Basler do a whole range of cameras, far too many for me to search through the various listings but, as an example, the acA750-30gc offers 12 bit pixel bit depth (I'm assuming that means 12 bits per colour but I could easily be wrong about that!) and a color sensor at about $600 retail but, again without checking, I've a feeling that Imaging Resource probably match that output somewhere in their product line.

Bob.

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 Post subject: Re: RAW video?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:25 pm 
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By RAW I meant a (near) lossless stream should be available. Strictly speaking, for a colour sensor that would imply it would not be de-bayered but actually that is not important for me. I'd take the de-bayered output providing it is not further compressed. Basically if I try to use a DSLR for video, the compressed format is too lossy and fine detail is lost. In theory a lower loss could be "good enough". I was hoping there might be some hacked compact that might fit that description.

Bit depth isn't important. For example, the DMK41 that I got is only 8 bit output. I just need good spatial resolution saved in a format that doesn't throw it away again.

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Canon DSLRs: 7D, 5D2, 1D, 600D, 450D full spectrum, 300D IR mod
Lenses: EF 35/2, 50/1.8, 85/1.8, 135/2+SF, 28-80 V, 70-300L, 100-400L, TS-E 24/3.5L, MP-E 65, EF-S 15-85 IS
3rd party: Zeiss 2/50 makro, Samyang 8mm fisheye, Sigma 150 macro, 120-300 f/2.8 OS, Celestron 1325/13
Tinies: Sony HX9V.


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 Post subject: Re: RAW video?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:53 pm 
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Hii popo,

If 8 bits is good enough then do you need continuous video? JPEG stills will offer you all the resolution you need and "Fine JPEG" compression won't detract from that resolution in any significant sense. For example the Nikon J1 can, according to the CameraLabs V1 review, buffer "up to 100 JPEGs can be captured at 10fps, or 30 JPEGs in either the 30 or 60fps modes". Of course there'd have to be pauses between bursts but if you are talking astrophotography (or solar imaging) I don't think such pauses will matter for "lucky imaging". Or maybe this isn't for celestial objects at all... :?

Bob.

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Olympus OM-D E-M1 + M.Zuiko Digital ED 12-40mm f/2.8, Lumix 7-14mm f/4, Leica DG Summilux 15mm f/1.7 ASPH, M.Zuiko Digital 45mm 1:1.8, M.Zuiko Digital ED 75mm 1:1.8.
Leica D Vario-Elmar 14mm-150mm f/3.5 - f/5.6 ASPH.
OM-D E-M5, H-PS14042E, Gitzo GT1541T, Arca-Swiss Z1 DP ball-head.
Astrophotography: TEC 140 'scope, FLI ML16803 camera, ASA DDM60 Pro mount.


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 Post subject: Re: RAW video?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:15 pm 
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Bob, the usage is astro. So pretty much what I am using the DMK41 for. Good point on the Nikons... I could just capture multiple bursts as quickly as I can shift the buffer anyway. Since I have the DMK41 I might as well continue with that for now and see where I want to go next, and if the Nikon's relatively low resolution is adequate for that. That reminds me, I got some avi's of the sun this morning I haven't looked at yet...

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Canon DSLRs: 7D, 5D2, 1D, 600D, 450D full spectrum, 300D IR mod
Lenses: EF 35/2, 50/1.8, 85/1.8, 135/2+SF, 28-80 V, 70-300L, 100-400L, TS-E 24/3.5L, MP-E 65, EF-S 15-85 IS
3rd party: Zeiss 2/50 makro, Samyang 8mm fisheye, Sigma 150 macro, 120-300 f/2.8 OS, Celestron 1325/13
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 Post subject: Re: RAW video?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:24 pm 
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Hi popo,

Hope you got some good data. I'm going to set up in a few hours and hope there's enough quality cloudless-ness around midnight to get the subs I need.

I thought one advantage of the Nikon 1 cameras was the high resolution (10.1 MP) of those 10, 30 and 60fps bursts compared to regular video. :?

Bob.

_________________
Olympus OM-D E-M1 + M.Zuiko Digital ED 12-40mm f/2.8, Lumix 7-14mm f/4, Leica DG Summilux 15mm f/1.7 ASPH, M.Zuiko Digital 45mm 1:1.8, M.Zuiko Digital ED 75mm 1:1.8.
Leica D Vario-Elmar 14mm-150mm f/3.5 - f/5.6 ASPH.
OM-D E-M5, H-PS14042E, Gitzo GT1541T, Arca-Swiss Z1 DP ball-head.
Astrophotography: TEC 140 'scope, FLI ML16803 camera, ASA DDM60 Pro mount.


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 Post subject: Re: RAW video?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:50 pm 
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Low resolution in the sense for most of the targets I'm thinking about, that pesky bayer filter is in the way again and more often than not will result in half linear resolution and a further reduction in sensitivity.

DMK41: 4.65 um mono
Canon APS-C 18MP: 4.16 um colour
Nikon 1: 3.38 um colour

Where I'm magnification limited, the DMK41 has slightly bigger pixels than the Canon's I've used up till now, but as it's mono, it gets the full resolution. The Nikon 1's smaller pixels helps to offset that but still has some way to go to break even.

Where I'm not magnification limited, then the 1's effective useful 2.5MP is about double that of the DMK41'1 1.2 MP, but still suffers a loss of sensitivity from the bayer and IR block filters. It will be an interesting value comparison.

_________________
Canon DSLRs: 7D, 5D2, 1D, 600D, 450D full spectrum, 300D IR mod
Lenses: EF 35/2, 50/1.8, 85/1.8, 135/2+SF, 28-80 V, 70-300L, 100-400L, TS-E 24/3.5L, MP-E 65, EF-S 15-85 IS
3rd party: Zeiss 2/50 makro, Samyang 8mm fisheye, Sigma 150 macro, 120-300 f/2.8 OS, Celestron 1325/13
Tinies: Sony HX9V.


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 Post subject: Re: RAW video?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:51 am 
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popo wrote:
does magic lantern or whatever the Panasonic thing is do anything like that? (...) or if you must use a more modern codec then it would need to be forced into all I-frames, again at low compression.


Yes, the GH2 can be hacked to record all I-frames at very high bit rates. Or you can use something like an Atomos Ninja to record the HDMI output.

Sorry for the late reply. I was away on vacation - Mark


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