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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 3:18 pm 
Hi folks, I have a problem with my new 60D that I need to find out if it's a design flaw or a flaw with my particular unit, since I have until tomorrow to send it back to B&H.

I've had it for a week, and in the footage I took I noticed that sometimes there would be a skip, which upon loading the footage in Edius, I noticed it's always a 3 frame skip, meaning that at certain points there would be a new frame and the next 3 frames would be exactly like the first, and then it would jump to a new frame that was 3 frames ahead in real time. Sorry if I can't find a more technical and clear way to explain it.

At first I thought it would be the card, so I tried different cards, but today I got to the root of the problem. It has nothing to do with the card, since I would see this happening on the camera's monitor as I was shooting. So today I did a test without any card on the camera, setting the power off to never, and walking around watching the monitor. At one point I came out of the garage into the daylight, and that's when I saw what the problem is. When the camera is in automatic exposure (which is the first menu item) and you move the camera between from area that is too bright to another that is in shadows, it does this 3 frame skip, and actually today for the first time I could hear this little noise coming from inside the camera, as if it was adjusting something in the sensor, or the mirror, or who knows what. This, by the way, was with manual focus the whole time.

I could easily repeat this by rotating on my own feet and pointing the camera forward close to my face, so when it would go from the daylight to inside the garage I could hear that click and then see that 3 frame skip. I ended up kinda dizzy :lol: but I found the problem.

So this seems to me like a design flaw, but I was wondering if a few of you could be so nice to take your 60D, set movie exposure to auto and watch the monitor very closely while you point the camera between different areas that are very different in the amount of light they have, moving it from dark to bright and viceversa, and let me know if you see that skip and if you hear that click. That way I know for sure if it's a design flaw or a flaw with my unit and decide whether to return it or not.

Thanks,

Sebastian


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 7:00 pm 
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A regularly-occurring error isn't 100% indicative of a design flaw. It can be a problem specific to one or a batch of 60Ds in the manufacturing/assembly process or factors other than a problem with the way the camera was designed.

In any case, if you have until tomorrow to return it, what do you have to lose by sending it back?

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 7:20 pm 
Rorschach wrote:
A regularly-occurring error isn't 100% indicative of a design flaw. It can be a problem specific to one or a batch of 60Ds in the manufacturing/assembly process or factors other than a problem with the way the camera was designed.

In any case, if you have until tomorrow to return it, what do you have to lose by sending it back?


Well, if I were to find out that it is a design flaw (or a constrain of the technology itself), I would try to see if I can get it replaced for some other DSLR that doesn't have that problem, or perhaps get the money back and do some more research before getting a DSLR.

So far one person in another forum did this test in his 60D and he sees the same problem, so I'm waiting to see if a few more people can test this for me and then I would decide better what to do.

Another thing that annoys me about this camera, and I hear is the norm in DSLRs is that it only records up to 12 minutes. I still don't understand why cameras are still using a file system from 1995 like FAT32 to format cards when there are plenty of file systems that have no file size limit, but also video cameras still use FAT32 but simply keep recording one file after another. I don't see why DSLRs have to stop. Is there any DSRL that records for the full size/duration of the card?


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 7:54 pm 
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Sebaz, I've noticed frame skip when using auto-exposure on my 7D (actually while testing how bad the AF was during filming). I don't have any numbers in terms of frames skipped but there is a jerkiness about the footage while the framerate adjusts... I haven't attempted autoexposure or AF on my 7D while filming since then, but it was noteworthy.

As for the filesize/time limit, it's a legal thing for the EU that would make the cameras cost a lot more than what they do if they could just shoot forever. The 5D Mark 3 does record from file to file continuously and shoots for 29:59 but after 30 minutes, cameras are subject to more taxes/fees (or so my understanding goes).

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 9:21 pm 
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sebazvideo wrote:
Well, if I were to find out that it is a design flaw (or a constrain of the technology itself), I would try to see if I can get it replaced for some other DSLR that doesn't have that problem, or perhaps get the money back and do some more research before getting a DSLR.

So far one person in another forum did this test in his 60D and he sees the same problem, so I'm waiting to see if a few more people can test this for me and then I would decide better what to do.

As I said originally, that isn't necessarily conclusive proof that there's a design flaw. It may be the case your cameras were from the same batch where there was a fault in the manufacturing process i.e. a camera from another batch may be free of this problem.

sebazvideo wrote:
Another thing that annoys me about this camera, and I hear is the norm in DSLRs is that it only records up to 12 minutes. I still don't understand why cameras are still using a file system from 1995 like FAT32 to format cards when there are plenty of file systems that have no file size limit, but also video cameras still use FAT32 but simply keep recording one file after another. I don't see why DSLRs have to stop. Is there any DSRL that records for the full size/duration of the card?

The four-stroke petrol engine has been around for decades and there are newer means of powering a car but the four-stroke petrol engine still has benefits despite its age and limitations.

FAT32 is almost universally compatible in terms of driver support, unlike NTFS for the sake of argument. NTFS is less than ideal for flash media because it writes much more frequently than FAT32 - the physical wear of the components as a result of this more frequent writing is much more apparent with flash media than with conventional hard drives.

As Plymer said, a video-capable recording camera that can record for 30 minutes or longer in the EU is legally regarded as a camcorder/video camera and therefore subject to additional duty. There have been talks of technology agreements being amended to include cameras - the result would be that the manufacturers would not have to limit the firmware to get around paying that extra duty.

You should also bear in mind that even if a DSLR was legally permitted to record video to the capacity of the card, it might not be able to. The sensor builds up heat when recording video so the camera may shut itself down to avoid damage before it records to capacity e.g. the Nikon D5000 was limited to 5 minutes when recording HD video due to overheating concerns.

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 9:31 pm 
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Yer overheating is a real problem with video modes on DSLR's. I regularly shoot videos for an hour and a half straight and by the end of it my camera is boiled. I would never trust any of the auto modes in DSLR video. Try put everything on manual and see if that fixes the problem. When DSLR's auto expose the video it often 'hunts' for a while to find the right exposure. During low light it is especially bad. It could be a flaw in your model if it is especially bad but having used 550d, 600d, 7d and a 5d2 all of them have not been particularly good. Remember DSLR's are designed for photography and in recent years they have bolted on a video feature.

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 9:50 pm 
Rorschach wrote:
sebazvideo wrote:
As Plymer said, a video-capable recording camera that can record for 30 minutes or longer in the EU is legally regarded as a camcorder/video camera and therefore subject to additional duty. There have been talks of technology agreements being amended to include cameras - the result would be that the manufacturers would not have to limit the firmware to get around paying that extra duty.

You should also bear in mind that even if a DSLR was legally permitted to record video to the capacity of the card, it might not be able to. The sensor builds up heat when recording video so the camera may shut itself down to avoid damage before it records to capacity e.g. the Nikon D5000 was limited to 5 minutes when recording HD video due to overheating concerns.


I thought we only had all the stupid laws here in the US :roll: But even so, why do we have to deal with that restriction for a camera purchased in the US? They sell video cameras in different versions for Europe and the US, why can't they do the same for photo cameras? I won't ever have the need to use PAL.

It amazes me that so many wedding videographers are using DSLRs these days. Sure the footage looks beautiful, but go explain the bride and groom that you didn't capture a close up shot of their first kiss because DSLR's have a 12 minute per clip restriction imposed by some European tax law and the unwillingness of camera manufacturers to make models for the US separately, we'll see if they are so understanding.


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 11:06 pm 
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sebazvideo wrote:
I thought we only had all the stupid laws here in the US :roll: But even so, why do we have to deal with that restriction for a camera purchased in the US? They sell video cameras in different versions for Europe and the US, why can't they do the same for photo cameras? I won't ever have the need to use PAL.

It amazes me that so many wedding videographers are using DSLRs these days. Sure the footage looks beautiful, but go explain the bride and groom that you didn't capture a close up shot of their first kiss because DSLR's have a 12 minute per clip restriction imposed by some European tax law and the unwillingness of camera manufacturers to make models for the US separately, we'll see if they are so understanding.


Respectfully, you can't be so selfish and short-sighted. Yes, there are regional SKUs for certain products but you have to consider that it may not be practical or financially viable to make multiple SKUs for every product. Doing so would have considerable implications for stock management and logistics. Think about the PR disaster regional SKUs could result in - a hotshot EU distributor could buy in a large quantity US or Asia SKUs of a camera which don't have the <30 minute limit to get and edge over the competition but they would likely be prosecuted for tax evasion. Even if the manufacturer is free of involvement and blame, they could bear some of the brunt of the PR storm. I'm not being melodramatic, similar events have occurred where faulty or non-approved components have been used or sold and the manufacturer's reputation was tarnished even though it wasn't complicit in the event.

Not wanting to sound flippant but there are times when only a poor workman blames their tools. The video recording time limits are pretty explicit in the manual so if you miss a key moment of recording because of your lack of timekeeping skills and forgetting to RTFM, the manufacturer is hardly accountable. You may as well whine to a car manufacturer for your car being able to exceed the speed limit if you get fined for speeding.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 1:19 am 
Rorschach wrote:
sebazvideo wrote:
Not wanting to sound flippant but there are times when only a poor workman blames their tools. The video recording time limits are pretty explicit in the manual so if you miss a key moment of recording because of your lack of timekeeping skills and forgetting to RTFM, the manufacturer is hardly accountable. You may as well whine to a car manufacturer for your car being able to exceed the speed limit if you get fined for speeding.


And you call me short-sighted after saying this? So in your view, if you're shooting a wedding, you're supposed to tell the bride, groom and officiant to have the 30 to 45 minute ceremony in segments of no more than 12 minutes long, giving me a few seconds between segments to make sure video is rolling, just because of some stupid European law about taxes that doesn't allow the camera to record longer than 12 minutes. Yes, that is not short-sighted at all! Hey, it's my fault because of my lousy timekeeping skills! :roll:

As for the EU distributor buying tons of cameras destined to the US market, sure, I can understand that, but I don't see that as a problem. In this case Europe has a dumb law that requires more taxes to be paid if a camera records over 12 minutes of video, well, maybe there has to be a way to force that law to be repealed since it's absolutely absurd that it exists in the first place.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 1:06 pm 
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sebazvideo wrote:
And you call me short-sighted after saying this? So in your view, if you're shooting a wedding, you're supposed to tell the bride, groom and officiant to have the 30 to 45 minute ceremony in segments of no more than 12 minutes long, giving me a few seconds between segments to make sure video is rolling, just because of some stupid European law about taxes that doesn't allow the camera to record longer than 12 minutes. Yes, that is not short-sighted at all! Hey, it's my fault because of my lousy timekeeping skills! :roll:

As for the EU distributor buying tons of cameras destined to the US market, sure, I can understand that, but I don't see that as a problem. In this case Europe has a dumb law that requires more taxes to be paid if a camera records over 12 minutes of video, well, maybe there has to be a way to force that law to be repealed since it's absolutely absurd that it exists in the first place.


Yes, I'm calling you short-sighted because you don't seem to look beyond the end of your own nose. There's much more happening beyond it.

Not once did I say or even suggest the bride, groom or officiants should have to set the ceremony in segments of 12 minutes or less - that was a disappointingly predictable way of twisting and "finding" hidden meaning in what I said. If you're half-competent at recording, you should plan your recording schedule around the ceremony so as not to miss key moments. With the weddings where I've helped out in an official capacity, they were rehearsed with a rough timing schedule. I don't see any reason why you can't use such a schedule to plan your video recording and decide the best times to stop and start so as not to miss key moments. Call me obtuse but I can't see wedding photography/video recording as something you can just do on the fly without any sort of planning since it's something you don't expect to do a second take for. If the 12-minute limit is so much trouble to work with, why not just buy or hire a dedicated camcorder for the job or is it just easier to complain as an armchair critic about stupid laws?

That you don't see my scenario with the EU distributor importing US SKUs of a product doesn't mean there is no problem. You also seemed to conveniently ignore the other potential problems I mentioned with stock management, which would push manufacturer-side costs up and of course they would be passed on to the consumer. The other problem and a real one is that warranties would often only be honoured in the country/region in which the camera was intended to be distributed - importing a US SKU into the EU would almost certainly invalidate the warranty and vice versa. You can say it's a risk the consumer takes but even without being directly involved, the manufacturer's reputation could take a hit from the negative PR.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 5:41 pm 
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Like Rorschach said planning is key when using DSLR's of video. When I am filming plays I always use a stopwatch to determine how long I have left. At the end of each scene when the lights go down I will stop and then start a new video. For my 550D it is about 29 minutes and for some of the other cameras such as the 5D2 it is 12 minutes. Most wedding photographers will do something similar and I am sure a lot of them use 2 or more cameras to ensure that more that at least one is running at all times. DSLR's were never designed to completely replace video cameras and most people would be very annoyed if prices went up as a result of paying the higher fees to increase the video length.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 10:42 pm 
Rorschach wrote:
Yes, I'm calling you short-sighted because you don't seem to look beyond the end of your own nose. There's much more happening beyond it.

Not once did I say or even suggest the bride, groom or officiants should have to set the ceremony in segments of 12 minutes or less - that was a disappointingly predictable way of twisting and "finding" hidden meaning in what I said. If you're half-competent at recording, you should plan your recording schedule around the ceremony so as not to miss key moments. With the weddings where I've helped out in an official capacity, they were rehearsed with a rough timing schedule. I don't see any reason why you can't use such a schedule to plan your video recording and decide the best times to stop and start so as not to miss key moments. Call me obtuse but I can't see wedding photography/video recording as something you can just do on the fly without any sort of planning since it's something you don't expect to do a second take for. If the 12-minute limit is so much trouble to work with, why not just buy or hire a dedicated camcorder for the job or is it just easier to complain as an armchair critic about stupid laws?


Seriously, it amazes me that you call me short sighted when you expose this kind of reasoning. If you've ever done or have been at any wedding, at least in the US, no matter if you attend the rehearsal or even in the remote case they give you the text of everything the priest is going to say and read, you cannot possibly divide all that in segments smaller than 12 minutes. Some you may, some you may not. And even if you could divide them all, has it occurred to you that the bride and groom want a full recording of their ceremony in real time, without any cuts? So lets suppose you video a wedding from two angles, one close up from the front, and one wider from one of the sides. But, the CU is the most important for obvious reasons, one of them being that you want the first kiss from that camera. So I would need two DSLRs side by side, zoomed in to give me almost the same exact framing, and remember to press the record button on each with at least 30 seconds difference to make sure I get video of every minute. That's ridiculous.

And for the record, I do have three professional video cameras that I use for weddings, and I wasn't really complaining about the use of DSLRs for weddings, I was saying how it amazes me that so many videographers are using them despite the 12 minute problem.

So what has been your contribution in all this, other than aggravating me? I asked for one simple thing, which was five minutes of somebody's time to test the autoexposure frame skip problem and tell me if it happened in their 60Ds. You have not contributed a single helpful thing to my request for help, and instead labeled me as inept when you hardly even know me. So, Rorschach, please stay out of this thread and any future threads I start. Thank you.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 10:45 pm 
jameswilby5 wrote:
DSLR's were never designed to completely replace video cameras and most people would be very annoyed if prices went up as a result of paying the higher fees to increase the video length.


Alright, but here's what I don't get. The Panasonic GH2, for example, is a DSRL that doesn't have the time limit. That is a $845 camera with one of the kit lens. So this tax, law, or whatever it is, can't really be that high. Now, how much more would Canon have to pay, and how much more the consumer would pay if Canon made their DSLRs with no time limit? An extra $100? $200 maybe? I'd be happy to pay that much more for that.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:02 pm 
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It would probably be at least an extra £200 which most people would not like since most do not use their DSLR for video very much. I find the time frame to be perfectly manageable and do not see this as a problem.

Most wedding photographers video using a DSLR because it means they don't have to buy any expensive video cameras because they already own a number of bodies. I suspect most will use multiple cameras. Although I know quite a lot only use one so it must be possible to find places to stop and start the video if you are focussed. I reckon DSLR's with no time limit are available such as the Canon 1D C (I'm not sure about a time limit but I suspect it doesn't have it). This is a DSLR designed to have a proper movie functionality and offers people the choice if they are willing to spend the extra money. As to whether Canon splits there cheaper camera ranges and offers one just for photos and one for both, we will have to wait and find out.

Rorschach has been a member at camera labs for a hell of a lot longer than you and has contributed a LOT to this site. I think it's blatantly rude to reject his opinion and ask him to leave you alone on this forum. If you start to annoy the people who have given up their own time to send you a message then soon you will find nobody is willing to give up their time. Cameralabs can be a very helpful and enjoyable forum as long as you respect the other members and are grateful for their opinion. Also Rorschach did actually answer your question at the beginning of this thread :D

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Oh that is so lame, every hot girl who can aim a camera thinks she’s a photographer -Stewie Griffin


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:00 am 
jameswilby5 wrote:
Rorschach has been a member at camera labs for a hell of a lot longer than you and has contributed a LOT to this site. I think it's blatantly rude to reject his opinion and ask him to leave you alone on this forum. If you start to annoy the people who have given up their own time to send you a message then soon you will find nobody is willing to give up their time. Cameralabs can be a very helpful and enjoyable forum as long as you respect the other members and are grateful for their opinion. Also Rorschach did actually answer your question at the beginning of this thread :D


If you read this posts after the first one he posted, you will see that he is very rude and arrogant, calling me names and labeling me as a beginner who doesn't know anything about video, when I have done it for 20 years. I will respect anyone who gives me their opinion and advice without resorting to cheap shots like calling me short sighted and other idiotic comments like that. I'm 41 years old, I'm not going to put up with people talking down on me.

And no, he didn't reply to my first question, which was simply if anybody could take their 60D for a couple of minutes, put it in auto exposure, and rotate it between a dark place and a bright place, and then let me know if they saw the frame skipping. I posted the same thing in four different forums, and only one guy in another forum was nice enough to do that for me.


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