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Plz read the msg before taking the poll. Which brand to choose?
Canon 59%  59%  [ 10 ]
Nikon 12%  12%  [ 2 ]
Mix bag of both 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Sony 12%  12%  [ 2 ]
Pentax 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Olympus 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Panasonic 12%  12%  [ 2 ]
Mixed bag of few 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 17
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:15 pm 
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Maestro wrote:
For ENG/Docu, especially in the field, I'd rather have four good cameras than two great cameras. (....)
http://www.zeiss.com/compactprime
If I had the budget, that's what I'd use - Mark


Roger that Mark. I was just hoping for the FS700 to be not so hassling at 1080p, 4K could be left for maybe later use, but then yes, i'll be paying for a facility i am not going to be employing in this project and instead having it for keepsake, doesn't sound too wise. Yet, I still would love to keep it for the 240fps and its performance as a dedicated video camera. I'll see how feasible it can be for me to have it.
Gordon has come out with the full review of 5DIII. That would help me a lot in zeroing down on DSLRs now. So I'm somewhat narrowing down on my options. Whats your take on the other options that i have mentioned in my earlier post, do give your inputs.

Zeiss impresses upon a load of quality, as you too have suggested and I am considering including atleast two lenses from them. Which ones do you suggest should i go for?

Thanks :)


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:57 pm 
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An then they said, " Let there be the Canon EOS 1D C!!"

loads to think now :D


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:29 am 
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Really? Sure, the 1D C's Super 35 crop mode is cool, but I wouldn't be comfortable spending 1/3 of my budget ($15k out of $45k) on just one camera. And getting back to the 4k discussion, the following is from the C500 press release:

Quote:
The 4K imaging format is emerging as the new standard for advanced effects and post-production in Hollywood, and it is particularly important for big-budget motion pictures that include scenes compositing live-action cinematography with high-resolution computer-generated imagery.


So I would narrow my original list down to:

Canon 5D Mark III (price rules out the 1D C and, since you'll be shooting architecture, moire rules out the 5D II, or, if you want to look at it the other way, lack of moire rules in the 5D III.)

Canon T3i, eventually supplemented or supplanted by a T4i. (For video, there's no reason to prefer the 60D, and you'll have the 5D III for higher quality stills. And since the only thing you mentioned where the 7D might have an advantage is equestrianism, I think these funds would be better used on a T4i.)

Panasonic AF100 (a true video camera will make things much easier).

Panasonic GH2 (hacked) and eventually supplemented or supplanted by a GH3.

As for which Compact Primes, that's something I would defer to your DP on.

Mark


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:09 am 
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You are right Mark, the 4K does bear a hefty tag besides the other things discussed. Hey, it was you who got me all interested in the canon 4K model :D But What is said now, too, holds ground. Although I still could have managed to accommodate a $10k by dropping a few things and putting some extra money for those glorious 'fps's(240 at 1080p on FS700, even canon has a good going with fps), but it seems at this stage, i should rather look towards the manageability side of things.
In terms of suggestions regarding other bodies too, your inputs have been quite practical. They have all been very insightful, especially regarding the technical side of things. I would want to thank you for that.

Quote:
As for which Compact Primes, that's something I would defer to your DP on.


I couldn't understand this line(probably because of not knowing the abbreviation 'DP' used) could you please throw a one liner on that. :)

Furthermore, I shall make a fresh list of bodies & lenses and post it for getting inputs, in the meantime, if any suggestions come my way, it would be great as always.

Thanks & Regards


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:04 pm 
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Sorry, DP = Director of Photography (aka Cinematographer) i.e. the person who decides which cameras, lenses and lights to use; where to place them; what settings to use on them; etc.

And as long as I'm posting, this looks interesting:

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/produc ... emacamera/

Wish they'd used a larger sensor, tho (1.5x crop factor relative to Super 35) - Mark

P.S. 240 fps can be a pain to light, too, since you lose 2-3 stops (which is 4-8 times less light).


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:58 am 
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Maestro wrote:
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/produc ... emacamera/
Wish they'd used a larger sensor, tho (1.5x crop factor relative to Super 35) - Mark


Wow!! This looks like a great option, or rather solution for me :) . I can wait a tad bit for its reviews or previews, but it surly seems to be the answer, save a few things:
sensor size(as you mention); I don't know much in the permutations, but this one, being a dedicated 2.5K video cam, would it have made a much desirable difference for this to have a bigger sensor; as in, the DSLRs have it for the high res(and better quality, precise colours, better detailed) stills. With the blackmagic being one of the latest offering in the dedicated videos department, wouldn't it be expected or possible that this cam might utilize the sensor size in a more effective way for the said resolution of videos. I don't know if I am sounding lesser in know-how, but i am just basing my contemplation on the image sizes with-respect-to sensor sizes (although I can anticipate the difference in the quality of image, provided the bigger sensor size gathering more light, yet i'd want to be educated a little more on these aspects and over-all difference while at real time application, of on site capturing and final broadcast. I can understand that there would be very many factors which come in play in between the two stages, but a slight indication might work for me.

Should i loose heart over the sensor on the blackmagic, coz as i said, this seems to be the solution for my stiuation.

Maestro wrote:
P.S. 240 fps can be a pain to light, too, since you lose 2-3 stops (which is 4-8 times less light).


Thats true :D why dint i think of that 8) :oops:

I am so glad that i took Gordon's advise to post my queries here, instead of facebook :D

Thanks Mark!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:15 am 
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There are a bunch of internet tutorials/demos on Crop Factor, but the one on the Zeiss "Lens Range" page is handy:

http://www.zeiss.com/C12575690045D103/G ... imes_l.jpg

Using that as a guide, since the Black Magic camera has roughly a 1.5x crop factor relative to a Super 35 camera, the 18mm lens will result in a field of view of around 27mm--18 x 1.5 = 27--or roughly between the 25mm and 28mm boxes. The problem with that is: the only way to capture a wider field of view--e.g. the 21mm box--(with a Compact Prime on a Black Magic Camera) would be to physically move the camera back father from the action/subject (which may or may not be practical/possible on location).

Your other options would be to use wider (non-Zeiss CP) lens or another camera with a larger sensor. (e.g. 5DIII) (FYI the 5DIII has a crop factor of around 0.7x relative to Super 35 so that same 18mm Compact Prime would have a field of view of around 13mm--18 x 0.7 = 12.6--actually larger than the entire image shown.)

But, as I implied above, this is all stuff that's more of a concern for your DP - Mark


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:49 pm 
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Oh..I got a little confused out there, of course I should have read your comment wrt the 'crop factor'
It slipped my mind that a zeiss prime 18mm would behave like a 27mm on the Black Magic and thus my need for wide angles(and other precision requirements) might be compromised. I got a little preoccupied with sensor size in all the other senses. As I had started building my gear on canon (full frame) DSLRs, EF L series lenses for canon seemed straight, with just a little tickle from the crop sensor on 7D, but since the time i have started considering a dedicated V-cam, the crop factor completely skipped my mind. Thanks for getting me back on track there. :)
Moreover, wrt the 5DIII, the 0.7x crop factor takes things in the other direction(which I hope should work for me if the lens-body compatibly and factors governing image distortion don't spoil the party). more for me to think now!


Maestro wrote:
But, as I implied above, this is all stuff that's more of a concern for your DP - Mark


Mark, I hope for it to not sound too funny, but in my case, I am the one (along with my partner) who is going to be multitasking and so, all the roles, as of today, fall in our laps only. Later on (as the project is a collection of multiple short films/docu) as we proceed, and the need be, we will assume our respective comfort levels and expand into a full fledged team. As of today, I am the DP :D


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:22 am 
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On a low budget production, I completely understand the necessity for everyone to wear multiple hats. And I also think that the more you know, the better you'll be able to communicate with other specialists. But I've said before with regard to photography, that, at a certain point, the skill of the photographer and post-processor will have a more significant impact on the resulting image than the camera. And I think that also holds true for video (replacing photographer with cinematographer, and post-processor with editor, of course).

So at your budget level, I think the project will benefit immensely from a DP who knows how to get the most out of your gear (and an editor who can do the same for your footage).

In any case, good luck! - Mark

P.S. As long as I'm posting, another concern I have with the Black Magic camera is that the non-removable battery has a short (90 minute) life and longer (120 minute) recharge time, and that recharge time is with the camera NOT in use. I still think it would make a good C camera, tho. (To the AF100's A cam and 5DIII's B cam.)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:15 am 
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Thats true, Mark, and I have those concerns on my mind. So long I don't have a DP, I'll have to take the shots. I, although have no professional(or educational) background in documentary film making, but have tried my hands on it. the product ofcourse needed improvements and change in approach in very many places(by self assessment), primary being equipment :), yet I did learn a lot in terms of movie making softwares as I was editing and learning from scratch at the same time. It was more of a fun thing for me, where as it appeared to have served a great purpose for the organization which wanted it done. Cinematography, I am abashed to admit here, was not so much i thought of, then, as the A B C was more of a catching up to do. But that was some time back. I have gathered a lot (primarily by watching and analyzing) the times since, although it does gives me tingle at times to think of doing a bigger project. I believe we are more towards being a team who script things more concretely, know exactly what we want to show and hence what we want the video to reflect becomes more comprehendible, but 'how' it is done for it to have that impact, in my view, more often than not, takes the cake :) . I am willing to imbibe, more than ape, so I guess it might hopefully do me some good. I am keeping my options open though, just as in equipment. I might enroll someone as you have suggested, eventually, or as soon as i find that its starting to make me feel the heat. Save that, I'd prefer to explore more, as equipments are just tools to cater to one's craft. I prefer to work with them and not struggle with them, and so I try to keep myself informed about their respective traits, as much as i can
(I am sorry to have taken this personal account so long under the wrong topic :) )

Maestro wrote:
P.S. As long as I'm posting, another concern I have with the Black Magic camera is that the non-removable battery has a short (90 minute) life and longer (120 minute) recharge time, and that recharge time is with the camera NOT in use.

Thats has kept me wondering too, as i was going through their website. But if the performance turns out good, then as you say
Maestro wrote:
I still think it would make a good C camera, tho. (To the AF100's A cam and 5DIII's B cam.)
Also, from time to time you have suggested that AF100 should be considered more seriously for the A cam. Do you suggest that I should somewhat, freeze it in the gear? I gather that you compared its (smaller)sensor size wrt the FS100, but in terms of robustness and user interface it stands on a different ground. I saw some comparisons too on youtube, and found that beyond different crop factors, I couldn't gather much :oops: A pointer or two more in that direction would really help :) It is because of this reason of not having used this grade of equipment, that i have been trying to play safe, even if the costs cut into my fees, and hence I have been inclined towards the 'big' guys presuming they might give me more room to get the desired results on top of providing me with options i can use in future, although i don't completely endorse the later(future) part.
I would also need to be more educated about what all are the components essential for A cam or B cam setup(I know i can google it, but I want to know a little bit directly and first-hand from you guys :) ) For example, what brands to go for and whether there are (good and reliable)brands that provide most of the package together? this will help me greatly.
Maestro wrote:
In any case, good luck! - Mark

That being the thing I need at the moment as I also await on other details of the project :D

Thanks Mark!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:15 am 
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Central Axis wrote:
Also, from time to time you have suggested that AF100 should be considered more seriously for the A cam. Do you suggest that I should somewhat, freeze it in the gear? I gather that you compared its (smaller)sensor size wrt the FS100, but in terms of robustness and user interface it stands on a different ground. I saw some comparisons too on youtube, and found that beyond different crop factors, I couldn't gather much :oops: A pointer or two more in that direction would really help :)


Well, as you've seen, in the intermediate range, footage-wise, the cameras are close enough that the differences aren't really noticeable. I've been recommending the AF100 because it's a more "professional" camera out of the box (and you could split the cost of lenses between it and a GH2):

1) SDI output (which also means SMPTE timecode support for, say, syncing your 5DIII, Black Magic cam and AF100).

2) side-mounted LCD (which, granted, isn't as important once you add an external monitor, but see "out of the box" above).

3) built-in ND filters (which, granted, can be added externally to the FS100, but again, "out of the box" above; plus, internal is so much faster, especially when changing lenses). Also note that, combined with the AF100's lower base ISO, the built-in ND filters allow you to shoot (architecture) in broad daylight without changing to a non-standard shutter speed or stopping down the lens (which could cause moire and/or diffraction). To be fair, the flip side of this is that the FS100 is capable of shooting in lower light. But a) I've seen video shot with the AF100 that was lit by a single candle, and b) any professional production will have a light rig.

Quote:
I would also need to be more educated about what all are the components essential for A cam or B cam setup


In a nutshell:

"A" camera is the shot you must have. (e.g in an interview, typically the subject.)
"B" camera is the shot you have to cut away to. (e.g. in an interview, typically the interviewer.)
"C" camera is the "wouldn't it be cool if..." shot. (e.g. in an interview, whatever you can think of to make it less "talking head"-ish--say, a wide shot of the interviewer and interviewee in front of the building they're discussing.)

It's not so much about specific brands, components or setups, other than you want to take the least chances with your "A" camera footage. Other than that, it's more about using the appropriate tool for the job. (e.g. counter to what I posted previously, for a wide shot of a building, the 5DIII would probably be more appropriate than the Black Magic.)

Mark


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:21 am 
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since the time we left this topic, a lot of gear has been launched. NAB came with lots curled up, but the last few days of product launches have been maddening :D. what to do now?

ps: good news for me is that i haven't spent a single penny on the gear yet, as things at 'resources-end' have taken that extra time to materialize. so its all open :)

Thanks in advance for your interest


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:32 pm 
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Wait another week until we know the rest that's released at the photokina? :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:42 pm 
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Hey Jiko, now that you mentioned it, is anyone going to photokina? Would be interesting to know how it turns out to be :D

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