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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:12 pm 
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To me the "trump card" of the 1 is claimed tracking AF. If that works as well as a SLR does it, this just went up a lot of notches on my wish list. Doesn't fall on my "need" list though. I think the true size potential will follow within a year or two now they got going.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:39 pm 
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With regards to tracking...if it can truly be as fast as a DSLR...that might be a feature to try to sell on. Though honestly the AF speed on the CDAF cameras in good light is already the equal of a DSLR, and the tracking capabilities are a bit slower but not bad - note that the new NEX5N and NEX7 have selectable subject tracking built in - it's just not sufficient for tiny fast-moving objects. The Nikon's issue here might be at least initially the slow lenses and lack of high ISO capability, and the unknown factor of how well the PDAF on-sensor system will work in low light (remember Fuji already made sensor-based PDAF cameras, and they were very underwhelming to say the least).

Bob - I agree with what you say on the cropability of the NEX vs the Nikon - I actually didn't see the actual crop factor of the sensor to be a great advantage for wildlife shooters in itself, as to the image quality of the pixels or comparing identical focal lengths to the NEX...where I saw potential was that with the tiny sensor, Nikon theoretically should be able to produce 300mm, even 400mm lenses that are significantly smaller than those designed for APS-C sensors. This would allow them to use significantly more focal length in the same or smaller package, making up for the pixel-level quality and croppability of the larger sensor that might be limited to a 200mm optical or so before it gets too cumbersome to be considered 'compact'. Unfortunately, at least initially it doesn't appear Nikon has such lenses.

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Sony DSLR-A580 / Sony 18-250mm / Minolta 50mm F1.7 / Sigma 30mm F1.4 / Tamron 10-24mm / Tamron 150-600mm / Tamron 90mm F2.8 macro / Minolta 300mm F4 APO
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:25 pm 
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Hi Justin,

The lens size is interesting. To achieve a similar angular resolution in the scene (for example, 1000 pixels to span the length of an antelope) then, from my previous post, if by way of example the Nikon V1 needs a 100mm focal length lens the Sony needs a 114mm focal length lens. Both cameras can work with the same diameter lens to achieve the same number of photons per second hitting each pixel. So on the face of it the Sony would need a lens 14% longer and the same width as the V1 would need to fit the antelope in those 1000 pixels. One spanner in the works is that the Sony would probably require a more complicated lens design in order to get good quality across the much larger sensor so the Sony lenses may need to be bulkier. Another spanner is that if Nikon choose to add zoom motors then the bulk of their lenses increases.

I'm afraid I haven't had time today to do a detailed side by side comparison of the two lens systems as I'm trying to learn TurboCAD - sorry folks :oops: . I'm looking forward to seeing how this all pans out but it does already seem clear that the much smaller sensor in the Nikon 1 system does not lead to proportional gains (or should that be losses?) in overall system size. Very confusing...

Bob.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:54 pm 
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One good thing: only 10MP!
Very reasonable.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:46 pm 
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Quote:
How are you supposed to hold the thing? No hand grip à la NEX-7 could be an issue for those of us whose hands aren't all small and dainty.


so you have some grip also on a cellphone?
you will hold it normally like everyone else, left part in left hand and right part in right hand, or opposite for self portraits

i kind like mirrorless systems, but never got taste for it. There is not so wide choice of lens for every system, they should come up with something common.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:48 pm 
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My cellphone is a lot lighter, thinner and doesn't have a heavy lens attached. :P

The issue isn't how you hold it securely when taking a photo but how you hold it when, for example, walking between shots. I'm used to a sculpted grip which allows me to hold a heavy DSLR securely with my right hand when my arm is pointing downwards.

Maybe grip isn't an issue for the Nikon 1 cameras but until I hear otherwise from a respected source (Gordon) I think the question needs to be asked.

Bob.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:37 am 
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They aren't making any bones about the target market with this product, so I don't see what the fuss is about.
The second edition my be targeted at the more advanced photog.
+photo courtesy of DPR

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:34 am 
Asia/female (no offense) markets.....small hands/style/trendy...

No doubt there's a market for the video capabilities here,..but
if the sample images are any indicator,...it's what is...a notch above P&S...just.

But a decent video camera,..that tracks quick and sure....that can save pics while recording.

I wanna know more about the 60fps full resolution...how many before buffer full,etc..

One can almost forgive the blandness of the pictures,..if you can get so many,so easy.

It's like a mini EVIL Casio...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:28 am 
So is it meant as a fashion/accessory/thingy? I guess there might be a market for that. Although the price seems pretty steep. (I'm not a cellphone/iPod/tablet user, so have no idea what technological accessories are about.)


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:20 am 
What would be the overall size and weight of a Fuji X100 equipped with such 13.2x8.8mm sensor, using an internal folded zoom like in recent compacts ?
Say a 28-112mm equivalent zoom opening at f2.0 when used between 35-50mm equivalent. Zoom geometric distorsion to be corrected using software.
There need to be an automatic lens cap and a thread for a x2 teleconverter or a polarized filter.
Really, if one can get something approximatively the size and weight of the Fuji X100, such is the real market for a 13.2x8.8mm sensor.
Later on, the same sensor may be used in a different body featuring advanced video features like an electronic viewfinder, stereo sound, built-in stereo mic, stereo jack in, neutral density filter, 1080/30i and 720p/60p recording formats, continuous iris control, and silent autofocus while filming.
Hope Canon, Sony and Panasonic will jump on the bandwagon.
A CMOS low noise 13.2x8.8mm sensor is indeed a new start, a nice proposition for a quality amateur photography and video integration. The micro 4:3 format is too large for amateur photograpgy and video integration. Of course the Sony NEX is too large also. Look how bulky, heavy and expensive the NEX lenses are. I like the 13.2x8.8mm sensor.
I don't like (or undertsand) the Nikon J1/V1 implementation. If they try to make it fun or fashion, they'll ruin the whole concept. Okay, surely they got visibility on the market. Now it is time to propose something serious. Maybe they painted their unfinished prototypes in flashy colors, for showing something before Canon ?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:52 am 
If the sample shots at Nikon's website are what we can expect from this new system, I think they're OK, they certainly look ahead of what any P&S can deliver.

Not so good for shallow DOF shots though, even (micro)4/3 is not up to what the much bigger ASP-C sensor can do, so this even smaller one is obviously outmatched in that particular aspect, also, the bokeh looks quite nervous to me, surely it wasn't a primary design factor of the lenses. Still, it's more than what you'll ever get with a P&S, but this system is certainly not the obvious choice for portraiture.

That said, if the system can do all that it claims, it will be a pretty fun and versatile.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:14 am 
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Hi folks,

From Gordon's preview:
    The 10.1 Megapixel CX-sensor in the V1 and J1 also boasts a hybrid AF system, offering both contrast-based and phase-detection AF systems, the latter built-into the sensor itself at the focal plane. In use both cameras automatically switch between phase and contrast-based AF depending on the subject, with the former allowing them to quickly track action even while filming video.

    If the subject is shiny or in motion, the V1 and J1 employ phase detection AF with up to 73 points (for single AF point selection) or 41 (when set to auto area). If the subject is stationary or poorly lit, the V1 and J1 switch to their contrast based AF system, which uses up to 135 areas. Once again Nikon claims it is the world's fastest AF system, and thanks to the numbers here, also the world's most focusing points too.

    .
    .

    I've already mentioned the fast hybrid AF system. Next comes supremely quick continuous shooting, with both the V1 and J1 boasting 10fps with autofocus, or a massive 60fps with the focus locked at the first frame. These speeds employ the electronic shutter which offers shutter speeds up to 1/16000. The V1 additionally offers a mechanical shutter with continuous speeds up to 5fps. I'm confirming buffer depths for all modes.
The V1/J1 cameras may be designed for a different audience than some of us had thought (me, for one :oops: ) but there's brilliant technology there which Nikon has implemented in a relatively large sensor. I can think of only one reason why this isn't implementable in the next generation of Nikon DSLRs and that's the mirror/pentaprism viewfinder. If the new XGA OLED electronic viewfinders coming on-stream, but not in the V1 for some reason :(, really can match the optical viewfinder experience then the mirror in traditional DSLRs has become a technological roadblock. Exciting times... 8)

Bob.

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 Post subject: Nikon 1 system
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:39 pm 
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In an apparent effort to make the lenses small, they are all reletively slow. This has the effect of forcing one to higher ISO to be able to stop motions. Given the smaller sensor, there will be more noise, so it comes off as a zero sum game.

Except for the 10 mm pancake lenses, the camera is not pocketable; so a bag is necessary to accodate the camera and accessories.

I always end up comparing the mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras to the fixed lens compact cameras. Right now, I'd prefer the Olympus XZ-1 to the Nikon 1 with the 10-30 mm zoom. For one thing, it has a regular Olympus hot shot. It has a faster lens, is pocketable, and goes usefully longer than the Nikon.

While I am complaining, I'll also complain about Nikon's choice of focal lengths. For the pancake, I'd much prefer a 35-40 mm equivalent. It's more generally useful. As to the standard 10-30 mm zoom at a 27-81 mm equivalent, it's not long enough - I want at least 100 mm, and it's painfully slow. I really see no practical advantage over my G12. :roll:

Finally, has it not dawned on anyone that no matter how small and cute the body may be, once you put a longer lens on, it becomes bigger and cumbersome? :oops:

What would really get me excited would be a reincarnation of Canon's Pro 1 with IS, the same lens specifications, high res LCD and EVF, and with the latest technology in sensors and processors. :D

Jerry

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:53 pm 
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Finally, has it not dawned on anyone that no matter how small and cute the body may be, once you put a longer lens on, it becomes bigger and cumbersome?


Those sold on the concept of the smaller, lighter mirrorless systems might think of it a bit differently. Here's the way I explain it, being a DSLR shooter who also owns a mirrorless interchangeable lens camera:

The DSLR is the big SUV...it can handle almost any duty - go offroad, haul the whole family, load up a bunch of stuff...the only thing it can't do is be compact and sporty. I love it, I need it, but I have to forego that one area.

Now a compact or P&S camera can be like a small sports car - light, agile, fun, easy to park...but it falls short on so many other measurements against the SUV.

The way I see a mirrorless camera is that it is more like a sports car - maybe a slightly larger one - lets call it a touring car. Not QUITE as small and agile as the P&S, but the larger size allows it to have a lot more power and speed...while still being far smaller, lighter, and more agile than the big SUV. Then you bring up long lenses - they make it no longer small and agile. I consider using a long lens on a mirrorless like adding a hitch and hauling a small trailer behind a touring car. It will temporarily lose it's small, sporty, and agile abilities, but adds much more room and storage and versatility - I can nearly match the SUV's utility in many respects - though still can't go off-road with it. Yet when I no longer need it, I can take off the trailer and have a small and agile sports car again. With the SUV, it can't ever be smaller and more agile, no matter which lens you put on it.

My NEX system is very very small. The lenses are not as small. There is a pancake option for when I need it to be pocketable, but accept the limitations that lens presents. There's a standard kit, which makes it unpocketable, but overall weight and volume are still a fraction of my DSLR. And if I need it, I can stick a longer lens on it to get certain shots - accepting that it is temporarily now much closer in size to a DSLR, but only as long as that lens stays aboard.

But I still need my DSLR. It handles better with the bigger lenses. It's ergonomically better for frequent shooting. It's faster to focus and tracks better. It has more lenses available to it. The battery lasts longer. It can fire bursts faster and has a bigger buffer.

Having BOTH in my garage is the perfect combo - the SUV and the sporty touring car...plus a little trailer kept along the side of the garage for those times I need the touring car to fill in for the SUV.

My problem with the Nikon as I can see so far, is it's a bit too small of a sports car - it's like a tiny subcompact with the roof cut off and sporty wheels - it looks about the same as the touring car in size, but open the hood and you have a tiny little 3-cylinder engine puttering inside.

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Sony DSLR-A580 / Sony 18-250mm / Minolta 50mm F1.7 / Sigma 30mm F1.4 / Tamron 10-24mm / Tamron 150-600mm / Tamron 90mm F2.8 macro / Minolta 300mm F4 APO
Sony A6000 / 18-55mm F3.5-5.6 / 55-210mm F4-6.3 / 10-18mm F4 / 35mm F1.8 / 16mm F2.8 / via manual adapter, lots of Pentax K mount, Konica K/AR mount, and Leica M mount manual lenses

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:53 pm 
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I just can't see how anyone would buy this over any of the new NEX's. Or other system cameras within it's price range for that matter.

In my eyes those Nikons are just a couple of glorified PnS. Except they are far bigger and more expensive. The gimmicks Nikon has given them has little to no practical matter as well.
They did not even include a PASM on the dial...
Some on the lenses are really small though, il give em that.

I would quite like to see this fail, start again Nikon, surprise us! =)

http://www.dpreview.com/products/compar ... sony_nex5n

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