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 Post subject: Bye-bye sony!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:55 pm 
http://sonyrumors.net/2011/02/24/sony-t ... mment-1483

Saw that on twitter this morning, My next camera will be a Nikon.
I've tried the EVF's and they're no good.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:16 am 
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All manufacturers will eventually dump OVF, so don't dump your Sony lenses yet.

Also each new EVF model is an improvement on the last and getting closer to OVF performance.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:49 am 
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Now that wouldn't be a good move, would it :) ? I'd wait until you get to see the new/next generation of EVFs in Sony's cameras. Sony said "current A700 owners will be amazed."

The A700 had a wonderful optical viewfinder...so it will have to be very good to improve upon it, I'd think :).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:20 am 
Which EVFs have you tried?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:29 pm 
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The World stops only for a few...

http://www.innovationamerica.us/index.p ... -this-year


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:01 am 
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sdowden has made his decision, so it's time for him to move on to a new system.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:13 pm 
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"sdowden has made his decision, so it's time for him to move on to a new system"

And also a new signature :lol:

"Camera: who cares its the photographer"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:14 am 
I've used both the a33 & a55, I was working part time in a camera store a while ago and got to test both over night.
I'll get to test the a77 via my girlfriend who now works in a camera store.

The thing people forget is a EVF offers a 2D image, its flat, I found it to be blue and I hated it.
YOU LOSE LIGHT!!!!!!!!!!


I shoot sport mainly these days, but I shoot in a studio a lot as well.
I see Canon has new cameras, no need for EVFs, Nikon the same. This will see Sony lose a lot of money as no one wants to buy into Sony as it is, most of us are old Minolta users or knew sony users before buying.

Buying a new system these days isn't as hard as people think.
Cameras are cheap, lenses are just as cheap and you can move over at your own pace. I already have access to a Nikon D300s and a old 80-200 ƒ2.8. I can pick up second well looked after lenses anywhere and still use my sony camera when I need a lens I've already got.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:52 am 
Any time you look at something with only one eye, it is flat!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 3:13 pm 
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I think a few conclusions you are jumping to might not be prudent leaps to make. First off, the EVFs of the A33/55 don't necessarily mean that's what the EVFs in future cameras will look like or behave like. Best to judge the A77 EVF when it comes out.

All cameras have compromises. Maybe you'll find EVFs to be a compromise on Sony cameras, and feel you should move to Canon or Nikon. Some people might consider Canon or Nikon to be a compromise, as they'll lose in body stabilization and the Sony quick AF live view system. Pick your poison. As long as you're happy with what you're shooting with.

You lose light with any viewfinder - even a big, 100% pentaprism loses a little bit of light, mirror viewfinders lose even more. Arguably with their ability to gain up, an EVF if designed properly could represent the identical amount of light as the real scene, and as far as it being 'blue' - again, that depends on the design of the EVF. Maybe the next one won't be blueish to you. Why jump to conclusions?

What Canon and Nikon do in the future is unknown. Technology changes, the world keeps spinning - things we once assumed would be around forever are now distant archaic antiques in museums. EVFs could develop so effectively that they become the defacto choice of all camera manufacturers down the road, and OVFs will disappear. Or not. Noone knows yet.

As for 'noone wanting to buy Sony as it is', another silly statement considering Sony's sales have actually INCREASED over the past 2 years, and they are taking a larger slice of the market since they brought out the NEX and SLT systems. Most of you AREN'T Minolta users - Minolta users represented a small slice of the market, who came over initially to the first Sony DSLR bodies. The A300/350 with their quick AF live view system brought in a majority of new users to that body, as did the A500/550 series. Look at any forum for the NEX and SLT, and you'll see that the vast majority of those buyers are new to Sony, many actually new to large-sensor cameras altogether.

You're right - buying into a system, new or old, is very easy. It remains so with any brand. Want a D300 and 80-200 F2.8? Go get it. Enjoy. It doesn't do a thing to delegitimize any of the Sony options, nor do Minolta used lenses or newly-used Sony lenses disappear from the market - on the contrary - Sony's used lens market is expanding the longer Sony DSLRs have been around.

Lest you think I'm bringing all this up because I'm a great defender of Sony, or because I love EVFs and feel the need to defend them...let me put these facts out there: I shot on Pentax and Canon before Sony, and hold no brand loyalty - I get the best system for me at the time. As for EVFs, I do not like them currently and I have no interest in one. I prefer OVFs right now, and could not live with an A33/55 for my shooting. I am also disappointed to hear the rumor that Sony may abandon OVFs altogether, because I haven't yet seen EVFs as capable of replacing OVFs for much of my shooting.

The difference is...I'm not jumping to conclusions or making any sweeping dramatic statements. My current Sony cameras currently work wonderfully, all my lenses are great, and I will hold judgment of the future Sony cameras until they actually exist and I can see if they meet my needs. If they don't, then quite simply I'll find a camera that involves the least compromises and the most advantages for my style of shooting. Since moving to Canon or Nikon would involve several big compromises, I'd weigh that option against trying to live with an EVF. If the EVF wasn't acceptable, then I switch systems. That's to be decided in the future, not now.

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Justin Miller
Sony DSLR-A580 / Sony 18-250mm / Minolta 50mm F1.7 / Sigma 30mm F1.4 / Tamron 10-24mm / Tamron 150-600mm / Tamron 90mm F2.8 macro / Minolta 300mm F4 APO
Sony A6000 / 18-55mm F3.5-5.6 / 55-210mm F4-6.3 / 10-18mm F4 / 35mm F1.8 / 16mm F2.8 / via manual adapter, lots of Pentax K mount, Konica K/AR mount, and Leica M mount manual lenses

Galleries:
http://www.pbase.com/zackiedawg


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:17 am 
the thing I don't get is why do they have to push the EVF's on to us? I can't stand them, I like seeing what I see without having to look into a LCD.
Yes they offer a number of options, but I don't need those options. The new cameras have video, I haven't shot a video in 15 years, I won't be shooting one for at least 15 more years and if I was I'll look at the NEX-10.

Sony do make good cameras, apart from the a900 I haven't been taken away by one, and even the a900 have issues & limitations.

I will stand by my "no one wants to buy Sony", in Australia they are with Pentax in terms of sales, Canon and Nikon are around 90% of the dSLR market and with Sony not bringing out the a560 & a580 here they are only using this market to bump up the sales of the a55 & a33.

I don't like the EVF, I can say I never will, if every camera came out with one I would go back to film for most of my personal stuff, my work stuff I need digital for its quickness.

IMO Sony's Alpha line will find itself in trouble with this move.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:47 pm 
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I'm with you on preferring OVFs, and not liking any EVFs so far. I'm willing to stay open-minded enough to say that I'll judge the future EVFs on how they actually work - maybe they'll do something unexpected - maybe a switchable optical/electronic function, maybe a hybrid like the Fuji X100, maybe some wholesale improvement in EVF technology...who knows. I'm also not going to completely jump to the conclusion that OVFs are dead for Sony's future - though it looks possible, and rumors lean that way, there has not been a final, definitive, nail-in-the-coffin statement saying Sony will never again produce an optical viewfinder camera.

Market differences are interesting - what you see in Australia and what some other parts of the world see are quite different. Sony is of course a very large presence in Asia and their cameras are routinely on the top 10 sellers lists. In Europe, Sony has a fairly solid foothold, though Canon and Nikon are the big obvious sellers - still, their market share is around 35% each plus-or-minus, with Sony around 10%, and other manufacturers making up the other 20% combined. Most estimates point to Sony having an upward trend at the moment with NEX and SLT sales taking decent bits of the market. Same goes for the US - all part of Sony's goal and prediction of moving up to 12-15% of the market. While they might eventually love to see themselves at #1, it isn't necessary to be the #1 or #2 manufacturer to be healthy, profitable, and successful. Look at how many automobile manufacturers there are making good products, and some smaller players are more healthy than larger players...Sony doesn't have to be #1 or #2 - they just have to be solid and profitable in this division and gain a solid foothold - stay a strong, healthy #3. Someday, maybe creep up closer to #2.

I agree with you to an extent, that eliminating OVFs altogether is a bad move right now. But it doesn't necessarily mean it will hurt their sales. Right now, they are adding new buyers quite quickly, many of whom have no experience with Sony, and moreover many with no experience with DSLRs or OVFs. Like it or not, OVFs are for those who already know about them from previous use, or those who get to sample them, learn with them, and see the advantages inherent in this type of shooting. Those who already know are an aging and shrinking class, and those who have tried or experimented with them from the younger incoming groups is vestigial - we are in an age of LCD screens - most people under 30 spend half of their lives looking at an electronic image - between TV, computer screens, smart phones, iPods, and iPads. If they don't know what they're missing, they're not going to miss it. It's easy to see the divide - go on another camera forum with a Sony DSLR page, and take a look at the style of argument/debate that many of the younger users employ when the discussion of EVF vs OVF comes up. OVF users hope both formats remain so people can pick their preferences...but many EVF users want OVFs banned and eliminated because OVF users are stupid dinosaurs (paraphrasing, but that's the general feel you get from their argument). There's no reason with these people - they like something, then the whole world should like it too. They don't smoke - BAN IT! They don't eat fatty foods - BAN IT! They don't use desktop computers - BAN THEM! They don't use OVFs - BAN THEM! They don't like manual transmissions - BAN THEM! It's a very selfish, all-for-me, I'm-the-reality-star, Facebook MyTube Myspace world with these young folks - Sony may be hurting some of the dinosaurs, but since they clearly see Canon and Nikon having the majority of those dinosaur users already, they seem to be leaning towards catering to the new self-involved, self-important, LCD-hypnotized youth classes.

Again, I remain hopeful that Sony sees a reason to keep making an alternate path for those dwindling classes of folks like us who like OVFs, and know that EVFs currently cannot replace them functionally for certain types of shooting. We'll see what comes in the future.

_________________
Justin Miller
Sony DSLR-A580 / Sony 18-250mm / Minolta 50mm F1.7 / Sigma 30mm F1.4 / Tamron 10-24mm / Tamron 150-600mm / Tamron 90mm F2.8 macro / Minolta 300mm F4 APO
Sony A6000 / 18-55mm F3.5-5.6 / 55-210mm F4-6.3 / 10-18mm F4 / 35mm F1.8 / 16mm F2.8 / via manual adapter, lots of Pentax K mount, Konica K/AR mount, and Leica M mount manual lenses

Galleries:
http://www.pbase.com/zackiedawg


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:11 pm 
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Im not going into this discussion with you all, I only want to say is that I dont like EVFs at all, for now.
Why? Theyre slow in low light, and with most cameras with EVF you cant see the image as you can with the OVFs when you shoot continuously.

If they make the EVFs really better than what I know for now, they could get on the top again.

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Panasonic DMC-FZ18, Panasonic DMC-FZ28, Canon G5, Canon 350D, Canon 50D + BG-E2N
Tamron 17-50 2.8, Canon EF 70-200mm f/4L USM,
Canon 18-55 II plus lots of Minolta MD/M42 lenses and bodies


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:33 pm 
EVF as clear and sharp as OVF... a high probabilty... as fast as OVF? not in a very, very long time... it would need to pass through the image with the speed of light to equal OVF... it might get so fast that the brain cannot distinguish but not for now...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:49 pm 
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Regarding the speed of EVFs for burst shooting, I will again re-iterate that most new Live View cameras WILL currently offer a live image between continuous frames. BUT only when shooting at around 3fps. The problem at the moment is delivering a live image at faster speeds.

Since this is mostly down to the speed of sensor readout and image processing, it's something which will easily be solved by quicker technology in the future.

I don't believe this will be an issue long-term. But there are of course the other aspects discussed which need to be resolved or improved to win-over traditional OVF users.

Justin's hit the nail on the head though regarding Sony's target market and markets in general. Sony want to sell interchangeable lens 'system' cameras to those who don't currently have them. If these people haven't bought a traditional DSLR by now, they're unlikely to in the future. They want something different. They want electronic composition. They want quick AF. They want HD movies. They don't see why having a big sensor and interchangeable lenses should compromise any of that.

That's why Sony has come up with different solutions and I applaud them for their innovation. They don't appeal to traditionalists, because they're not meant for them. They're shifting their strategy to markets and buyers unsuccessfully targeted by existing manufacturers and products. They're adpating while others are standing relatively still.

At this point most traditionalists come back by asking why can't they just build one DSLR with basic features, but great quality? No bells and whistles, just a great sensor and OVF. In many respects the A900 was that camera, but the fact is it just doesn't make financial sense to build a camera with limited features now. It needs all the bells and whistles to drive sufficient sales in most markets, which in turn justifies the development, and also increases volume which brings down costs for all of us. Without Live View and movie modes for example, you simply wouldn't have sufficient sales to pay for development.

As for the Australian market not buying Sony cameras anymore, I can't comment on their current position, but I can tell you it represents a very small market globally. Compare population and sales to Europe, USA and Asia and it's understandable to see Sony adapting themselves to the demands of these bigger markets.

And they're doing very nicely in each of those. EVIL cameras in Asia in particular are huge right now. Anecdotally, living in an International tourist destination like Queenstown, you easily spot visitor trends for cameras, and I kid you not, almost every-other Asian tourist I've seen this year has a NEX-5.


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