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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:01 am 
Hi oldwarbler,

From user reviews, the HS10 can't seem to auto-focus in video mode. The AF is too noisy, it seems. That leaves you with only manual focusing or no zooming.

Another complaint is about the manual focus ring. While the dslr style handling is welcome, the focusing ring is in a too inconvenient position to use. Many complained that it is not usable at all!

In any case, the ergonomics of the camera do seem very good.

Still waiting for more full reviews after photographyblog review.

Jinay.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:25 am 
Jinay - Agree about the Reviews - the HS10 was announced in the first week of February - in a few days it'll be the first week in May - 4 Months... And so far, only one "site" Review. And as far as Gordon's Reviews go, they seem to be "doing a Pentax" on that, too.

Re the Video - if those doing the complaining about the HS10's setup had tried to video with an S2000HD, they'd realise that "anything different" has to be at least a stage better... While the S2000HD "can" power-zoom while videoing - the dreadful clatter of the "stepping" zoom motor makes it impossible... And if it was possible, the Focus takes seconds to catch-up anyway.

So you quickly get used to shooting shortish clips, stopping Video, change zoom, and restart - and by then the Focus has caught up... Convert the clips to your, say, DVD format, then use either Effects, or fade-crossover Transitions, in a Video-Editor.

Neither the S2000HD or the HS10 are Camcorders - they're D-Cams with an additional "hobby" Video-Function. Sure, the big DSLRs have more "professional" Video-Functions - but not for $500.00, they don't.

I suspect that a method of "working around" the HS10 Video limits will soon become apparent. The manual Zoom ring which some are saying is "tight and jerky" will probably get a lot smoother as the newness wears off.

Quite likely the Std HD - 1280 x 720 - will be more controllable than the high-end Full-HD. That might allow "slower" zoom-change while Videoing, so the Autofocus can keep up.

As it says in the Manual - Page 65 - the Autofocus does make a noise... But if it will allow the Zoom + Autofocus function, the "focus noise" can be nulled or damped-down in an Audio Editor - if your Video Editor doesn't allow that on the audio-tracks.

The Editor I'm using, Kdenlive, after it splits the Audio from the Video, lets you shift the audio-track from a clip to an Audio Editor - where it's easy to null the offending few seconds / part-seconds, then fix the "gap" - and shift it back to the Video-Editor.

Often it's just easier and quicker for later processing to do short clips, and "change distance" between them.

But - like you - I'm awaiting some more Reviews before making any decisions... Mr Pentax is still busily making KXs....

Dave.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:31 am 
Hi oldwarbler,

Agree with you on the video part. It's no camrecorder. Really speaking, I couldn't care less about video, because I am fine even if it is not there at all, but now that it is there, it makes me wonder!

Any idea what the minimum aperture is at wide angle? One site mentioned f/8, and another f/11. Some facts seem wrong even on the Fuji official site. The motion remover and multi-motion capture give 5mp photos against 2mp I read on some other site! With no reliable material, I had no way to verify this until I came across a picture review, whose link I posted earlier in this thread.

Regarding your problem in continuous IS on your Fuji, I thought this may be of some help:
http://www.cameralabs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22040
It is When to us VR/IS in Off-Topic.

Also, Pentax K-x is a great camera with better high-ISO performance than the flagship K-7. However, the dust cleaning system is not that of the K-7. It is inferior and does not do a very good job. And the excellent Pentax 55-300 lens is available at a steal price as a twin lens kit only in the US. Otherwise it is dead expensive! Sadly, the body-IS is not very good too. Compared to other systems, I read it is not very effective.

Waiting for more pro reviews on HS10..........

Jinay.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:10 am 
Jinay - It seems that the HS10 only goes to f/11 in Manual, not P, A, and S. But I suspect that if you were doing settings at the HS10's limits, you'd have it on a tripod or rest, anyway.

I see the motion-remover and multi-action capture as gimmicks that "might" work under ideal conditions, but wouldn't be relied on for general use.

With the Video - so long as one can hit the "Red Button", stop shooting, use the twist-zoom to re-distance, then hit the Red Button again quickly, that should be okay for hobby-level clips. Edit and do the fade-crossovers or transitions in a video-editor later.

Or if the zoom is used while videoing and it does "skip" and/or add re-focusing noises to the audio, those things will only be a few seconds that can be edited out later. Use the "gap" to show a text-explanation of what's going on, showing for the the 3-4-5 seconds of the edit-out. Fade into that from video, and back out from it into the re-distanced video.

Like the S2000HD, the HS10 has a High-Speed mode, which improves focusing speed and shutter response. Perhaps, like the S2000, turning the Review function off in the HS10 will reduce time between shots.

It seems that the HS10 has some very good functions, but the setup, Colour mode, Sharpness, so on, have to be used, and when well out into the zoom, the IS does little good, or worse. Perhaps the best results for at least the 20x-30x zoom area, will be, IS off, use a rest or tripod, in A, S, or M modes.

That Polish image samples site has several very good "long distance" ones, so the camera can do it - I just wish I could read Polish to see if the very-good Photographer explains how it was done!


Yes, I've been closely watching the KX, ever since liking the KM (K2000) - and seeing the KX replace it. It features quite prominently on its brand-name forum, and elsewhere. All those great abilities it has - then the several "issues" it also has.... The "dust" one scares me - I've never had a DSLR, and without a friend to show how to do it safely (I don't know anyone with a DSLR) - I wouldn't dare try to clean the sensor... So it'd have to be a "shop job" - at a probably "interesting" price.

We have the Pentax lens kits problem here, too. Of course, as you say, the Pentax L 55-300mm is US-only. When the KX was released here, for a while it had the kit option of Pentax 18-55 and 50-200, for AUD$849.00 (US$780.00), but that's been dropped recently.

The only 2-lens kit for the KX now is the Pentax 18-55 - and the Sigma 70-300 - the el-cheapo one, not the DG APO. And no, you can't get that offer, but pay the extra $100.00 or so to get the DG APO... You must buy the KX with just the 18-55, for AUD$725.00 (US$670.00) - then pay full-price for the DG APO - AUD$300.00 (US$276.00.) So that combination would be AUD$1,025.00 - US$945.00.

Weirdly - the KM is still on sale here - and that now comes with the Pentax 18-55 and 50-200 kit - er, for a mere AUD$975.00 - US$900.00....

We certainly get the better Pentax 55-300 DA ED here - for AUD$670.00 - US$620.00. Nice lens, sure - but in my position I'd be getting the Sigma 70-300 DG APO - which is AUD$300.00 here - US$275.00.

So while the KX itself has some problems - here, so do the kits and prices... Therefore, while I'm not at all sure about the HS10, yet - I am indeed sure that I'll "pass" on the KX... Sure, I like the Pentax range features - in-body stabilisation and can use a big range of older lenses, so on.

In the US the KX with 18-55 kit lens is US$470.00 - about AUD$500.00... That's less than the AUD$559.00 we pay for the HS10....

Sorry, Mr Pentax - get your Australian end act together.... I'll watch for the K-5 - or whatever it's called - KX replacement to see if you have...

Dave.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:36 pm 
Hi,

Considering the "great" abilities of a camera, the absence of some small features can be a real let down, particularly since we fail to figure out a good reason behind it! Be decent and call it our greed or be blunt and call it foolishness, but that is one reason why nothing can be perfect!

I guess the further away you in from the US, the tougher the camera market gets on you. Here in India, the Canon 500d is actually over 10k cheaper than the Oly e620, which is madly priced at 45k+ with the kit lens! Going by Amazon prices, it should be cheaper!

Dunno when will non-US countries be taken more seriously!

Jinay.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 12:26 am 
Jinay - Yes, it seems that the big Corporations have strange "lenses" in their World-Glasses.... There's a "US-Region" - No.1A, and a "Japan-Region", No.1B - then a strange little place called the "EU-Region" - apparently No.2..... Then all the other "Strange Places" - South America, Africa, Middle-East, Central and South Asia, Oceania (Fiji, Australia, N.Z, etc) - are "Support Areas" - where prices are much higher...

As with Computer and other Electronics - it does look as if the "Other Strange Places" pay a lot more, so the Corporations' "home markets" pay a lot less....

Of course, that might not really be their plan - but from here - and apparently where you are, it does tend to look like that.

Perhaps Australia is a "tiny market that nobody in Corporations has ever heard of" - but if they think India is a "tiny market" - those Corporations really do need to get their Marketing-Glasses checked...!

Maybe in Australia we'll have to wait until the Chinese perfect their "cloning" of things Electronic - a "perfect copy" of a Pentax K-7 for AUD$250.00 - would be nice - even if, in best traditions of Chinese copy-electronics - it fell to pieces (like the digital TV set-top-boxes...) - the week after the 12-months Shop-Warranty ran out...

On the Canon 500D and Olympus E-620 - in Sydney, the Canon 500D with 18-55 IS, is AUD$1,059.00 (US$975.00), and the E-620 is AUD$880.00 (US$810.00) with the 14-42 kit lens.

If I do get the HS10 (still a big "IF", until as you say, there are more properly detailed Reviews) - it will be to complement the Canon SX10 I have - the things it doesn't do. On stills IQ it wouldn't "replace" the SX10, which for a small-sensor Bridge camera is pretty hard to beat.

But it does have the 7-frames at 10fps (and the 7-5-3 rates) - a lot faster than the SX10's 1.4fps continuous. Also 2 levels of HD Video in H264/MOV - some fun, at least, for hobby-level users. And it goes to 30x zoom, against the SX10's 20x. Sure - to make that 30x work well, it might mean Aperture Priority or Manual, on a rest or tripod... That it can even "do it that way" - for just over $500.00, is at least entertaining.

So, now I've decided against the Pentax KX - at least, the present model - what I'm looking at is "extending" what the SX10 can actually do. Looked at from that angle - the HS10 - at the unexpectedly low price here, almost the same in USDs as the US price - seems quite attractive.

The SX10 does things that the HS10 doesn't, too. So together they could make a pretty good hobby-level partnership.

Of course the Makers - Canon, Nikon, Fuji, any of them - could make the "perfect" Bridge Camera - with the S200EXR's bigger sensor, 40x-zoom, both HD-Video levels, the SX10's stills-IQ, and maybe makes nice Coffee and does "true" Stock-Market predictions, too....

But it'd be bigger than a Nikon D3X - probably cost as much - and might just have "missed the point" of what being a Bridge-Camera is about...

Dave.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 2:49 pm 
Hi oldwarbler,

Finally in India, home-grown mobile companies are forcing Nokia, the market leader here to launch new phones which are cheaper and have more facilities! Hope this brings about a "revolution" in electronic market here....

As for the HS10, it seems it will come at a pretty reasonable price compared to other cameras here, but I guess there will still be some time before we can get it.....

Jinay.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 4:39 am 
Hi,

While the absence of pro reviews continues, I checked Amazon user reviews again. This time, the average rating has gone up to 3.7/5.0. Newer reviews seem more of positive compared to older ones. One that got my attention was by a guy who owned Canon 40D with 8 lenses, which he sold and waited for Fuji HS10. He is extremely happy with this camera and says that the ISO1600 is "certainly very usable." The slow RAW file writing problem still continues, and JPEGs are called a "little faster." Flash seems weak and one person said he had a 15-sec delay after flash. No idea about battery, though. Using LCD all the time, battery seems to last around 200 shots.

Jinay.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 11:41 am 
Jinay - Did you see the PhotoReview "full" review? A bit more, if not as comprehensive as might be.

I'm building a distinct impression that the HS10 is a camera with some issues, partly improved by the 1.01 update - but one that can work well, providing that users "know about it".

Its apparent habit - if the Triple IS is on - of raising and raising the ISO as zoom range increases, needs knowing about. And switching off.

Some Users are complaining that it's "soft and won't focus properly" at the 24mm Wide End. Then further reading of their posts shows they were using Auto, or thinking that Program is an "advanced control mode..."

Then look at the landscapes and seascapes done by more experienced folk in other modes, Aperture, etc - and there seems little to complain about. For a 24mm to 720mm zoom into an aspirin-sized sensor, that is.

However, using it as a P&S without thinking about how it does different things, is clearly a no-no....

Now that there are some processed RAW samples to view - you can see that the RAWs have a greater dynamic range than the JPEGs, and have better colour and sharpness - and whether that's the camera or the processing, or "a bit of both", doesn't matter - so long as it can do it at all...

Have you tried the download samples of the HS10 RAWs, yet? Fuji has yet again changed the RAW "recipe" from that of the CCD-sensored S200EXR and series, for the HS10. My "usual" apps that handle Canon, Nikon, Pentax, etc, RAWs, won't touch them. Nor will Adobe's current converter make DNGs of them.

(Pentax has a good idea of giving the option of PEF or DNG in the KX - don't know about their other models.)

I did a bit of cobbling-around - from having the S2000HD Viewer, to getting that "upgraded" to the S200EXR version, then applying the RAW Updater to it. To little effect - it won't run the HS10 RAWs - but will allow saving to TIFF. Which according to Photoshop 7 - is an 8-bit TIFF...

Do you know of anything - other than the Software on the HS10's CD - which will run those - or at least convert them to DNG?

Dave.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 1:52 pm 
Hi oldwarbler,

I haven't read the review you mentioned, but will search for it. As far as RAW is concerned, there is a similar issue with the Oly e620. Adobe won't convert the file nearly as well. The inbuilt engine does the best job at it. In normal raw files, you should get +/-2ev latitude, but with this camera, you get only about +/-0.5ev! It seems the inbuilt jpeg engine is capable of practically squeezing all the data from the raw. Coming back to the HS10, how much actual difference is there between the jpeg and raw files? Since, if it is saved in 8bits, you may lose tonal detail if the raw is worth more bits. Most dslrs today seem to give 12bits.

The HS10 is very difficult to measure up. Comparing it with p&s, it seems very good, but then again it is the most expensive of them. Comparing it with dslrs, even the most modest ones and it is easily blown away in iq!

Jinay.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 8:35 pm 
Jinay - The bitrate for the "new and different" RAF-RAW for the HS10 seems to be a deathly-secret...

While one review alleges that the Silkypix software for it makes a "16-bit TIFF" - I do suspect that's 'name-only' - that is, if the file isn't 8-bit, it must be 16... As you say, I suspect that it's 12-bit at best, as only the more pro-level DSLRs go above that.

But so long as Fuji's being so secretive about the HS10's RAF version - the makers of the many commercial applications that input RAW files obviously can't make versions - or perhaps plugins - for it. Good old Adobe can't even fix its DNG-converter to use it...

If you look at that "full" (no, nothing like Gordon's deep-level probes) - Review, they have at least some "bench-testing". The RAF-RAWs, according to that, have more dynamic range, better colour and definition, so on, than the JPEGs. By comparison, the HS10 is "a bit cruel" to its JPEGs, particularly with the Noise Reduction.

As you mentioned earlier re the 40D ex-owner - it appears that the HS10's Fujinon lens setup is actually very good. Most problems with IQ (apart from not having the S200EXR's bigger sensor...) - appear to be related to how the User operates the camera - then how the camera itself somewhat heavily processes the JPEGs.

So - the HS10 is a "bit of a challenge" to get the best from it - but can do very well, particularly with the RAWs. Which for hobby-learners around my level, could prove to be quite highly educational...

Perhaps where you are the HS10 is the most expensive Bridge camera - it certainly isn't, here. It's AUD$559.00, while the S200EXR is $599.00, the Canon SX20 is AUD$589.00, and the Canon SX1 IS is a scary AUD$754.00...!

You can have a Pentax KX with kit 18-55 for AUD$725.00, Nikon D3000 with 18-55 kit for AUD$789.00, or Canon's own 1000D with the 18-55 IS lens for AUD$719.00 - $35.00 less than the SX1 IS...

While we thought that the HS10 here was going to be "around $800.00" - or similar to the SX1 IS - it's actually $559.00 - less than Canon's SX20... While Nikon's P100 has been reduced (rather odd for our market!) - in price twice since release (when it was nearly $700.00) - to just under $600.00 - and now is $527.00. The Reviews have not been at all kind to the P100...

The way the HS10 is priced here now - $559.00 - isn't too bad, but if you buy some cards and batteries at the same time, they "can get pretty close to $500.00" - and also "do a deal" on a good bag for it, so as an interesting hobby-toy and educational device, that seems to be quite reasonable.

That might be because I have a Canon SX10 - with which, if "good" JPEGs are needed, its Level-3 Superfine ones are pretty hard to beat. Then it has AEB at its full +/- 2EV in 1/3 steps - which the HS10 doesn't do. The HS10 does both Std and Full HD video, which of course the SX10 doesn't do, and so on.

The SX10 does only 1.4fps at full 10Mpix Continuous - the HS10 7 frames at 10fps... But the HS10 doesn't have a Custom Timer setting - I use a 5-second Custom setting with the SX10. If I get the HS10 - I can see myself taking both in my carry-bag on outings and trips... And have the "luxury" of then choosing which will do certain tasks best.

And just hope that nobody mistakes me for those Real Photographers who carry 2 DSLR bodies around.... Ahhh, no great risk of that, actually...! :shock: :D

Dave.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 2:45 am 
Hi oldwarbler,

The 16-bit sounds a bit too afar, since if it really was so, Fuji should have been all over the World announcing it! The HS10 challenge would be post-processing. Shoot strictly in RAW and apply noise reduction on computer. Frankly speaking, it should put out most "enthusiasts!" This one does a good job in filling the gaps as you mentioned earlier. Lets see how it fares against competition. This is a pretty hard one since it has only 2 more in its class: Nikon P100 and Oly SP800UZ, both seemingly inferior to HS10. Panasonic FZ35/38 and Canon SX20IS should provide a good bench-mark in terms of quality and performance, though not zoom!

Jinay.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:47 am 
Hi guys,
I just got mine yesterday.
Unfortunately I will not have free time to take it out till Saturday... all this waiting and now no free time.
I made firmware update immediately...
I play with it for 10 minutes last night… I did not notice any focusing problems in low light (I was in the apartment, around 19:30 pm, so there was pretty dark)
Controls are intuitive and even I found what I was looking for quickly and without looking at manual (although I read it couple of times before it arrived )
Video is OK if lightning is good, but still 1080p is not as good so I believe I will stick to 720p.
Continuous shooting (7fps) freezes up camera for 8 sec – so not as bad as everybody says, but this was for Jpeg.
That is all for now… I will post some photos and impressions on Saturday, or before If I manage to have some time with it before.
:lol: :lol: :?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 12:04 pm 
Hi dkacunic,

Nice to see you back.....

Got me really excited! Dying to know from a reliable source how this one actually is! We'll wait for your full review!

Thanks,
Jinay


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 8:28 pm 
Dkacunic - Congratulations on taking the plunge! And yes, I agree with Jinay that it will be much better to get Reports from somebody on Forum - so I'm waiting eagerly for those!

Others - the Amazon and other hands-on Users - have said that the Std 720p Video is better than the Full 1080p, with the HS10. Which suits me, because for doing PAL MPEG2 conversions for Std-TV DVDs, that's more convenient.

I've been doing that with my S2000HD's 1280 x 720 compliant MPEG4 - which that camera saves as ordinary *.mp4 files. That can be quite okay, so long as you don't zoom while video-ing (the zoom-motor noise is horriffic!) - unless you're going to dump the audio-track and add voice-over and music instead, in your Video-Editor.

From what the more experienced folk using the Canon SX1 IS's 1920 x 1080 having been saying, the H264/MOV video in the HS10 should be better than the S2000's "plain MPEG4".

However, I've also noticed that they say the SX1's Full-HD video needs a pretty powerful PC and a lot of RAM to handle it. Just from downloaded free samples of that, I've tried, they are quite correct. That is - it makes my AMD 6000 dualcore 3GHz PC, with just 2GB of DDR2 - on Linux - work quite hard.

But - and you'll be able to verify this for us - the HS10's 1920 x 1080 is rather easier to handle than the heavy-duty output of the SX1. I have the Manuals for SX1 (and SX20), and the HS10. All show the number of minutes per GB for their video output. That tends to suggest that the HS10's Full HD H264/MOV is at a lower bitrate than the SX1's - then comparing the HS10's 1280 x 720 (as it does both) - with that of the SX20, that appears to show the same.

So I'm now wondering which of the HS10's HD levels will actually be the best "conversion-down" to 720 x 400 (and add black bars for std AR 4:3 TV) - video... But whichever, it should be better than the S2000's MPEG4 at Std HD level.

The SX10's H264/MOV video is actually pretty good for the 640 x 480 resolution - much better than the S2000's VGA, and that of friends' cameras doing 640 x 480 as MJPEG. However, the SX10, even on "slow-zoom" does have zoom-motor noise intrusion, though not nearly as bad as the S2000!

I was hoping that the "zoom-motor" noise being absent with the HS10's manual zoom might solve that problem. But the User-level Reports say that it's jerky and "jumps"... Maybe that's caused by the "tight newness" with new HS10s - and it "smooths-out" once the camera has been used for a while.

But, even if not, the manual zoom should allow very quick distance changes between clips. The video stop-start is right-hand, and the zoom is left-hand - so I'm hoping that the "change distance" + "stop-start video" can be coordinated fairly quickly. I doubt that the manual focus can be used with much effect on video - though perhaps you could try that for us?

As the HS10's HD video will be one of the things I'd be using to complement the things that the SX10 doesn't do (along with the 5 shots at 10, or less, fps, etc) - it's important that one of its 2 HD levels works well, as I can't afford a proper camcorder, too...!

Do you have different levels of Cards you can try - Class 4 and Class 6, or higher? What effect do "faster" cards have on the delay between shots - and particularly between continuous bursts? If no or not much difference there - is there any between RAW + JPEG shots and/or bursts? I have several 4BG Class 4 and Class 6 cards, but certainly wouldn't mind buying faster if that made any difference.

Is there an HS10 difference between "new" AA rechargeables, and well "broken in" sets? I've noticed that my Eneloops (I have 5 sets for the SX10 and S2000HD) - work far better after several recyclings "from new" if fully discharged between rechargings the first few times.

I'm getting - with fully broken-in Eneloops - 350-400 shots (no video) - with the S2000HD, and 550-600 (no video) - with the more efficient SX10. However, that starts to drop after several cycles. The SX10 "uses more of" the batteries before the Warning shows, than the S2000 does.

Sets of batteries (I keep the sets separate, but use them in both cameras) - used in the SX10 take a lot less time to "fully discharge" than do the ones from the S2000. Doing a "full discharge" after quite a lot of "standard chargings", when the shots-number for a set starts to drop, brings them back to the full-function.

I'm using the basic Sanyo "slow-chargers" (I have 2) - that take about 10 hours to charge. I use the S2000HD's "full discharge" function to do that task. The HS10 also has this function - Manual Page 113.

Keenly awaiting those Reports!

Dave.


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