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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:04 pm 
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Starting to really like the M-series myself... :x

Might go out tomorrow after classes to see one in person.

- Bjorn -

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:19 am 
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Hi folks,

There are three pages discussing the M9 in depth, including some detailed comparisons with the earlier M8 and also the Nikon D3x on Erwin Puts' site. Here are the links:
Bob.

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Olympus OM-D E-M1 + M.Zuiko Digital ED 12-40mm f/2.8, Lumix 7-14mm f/4, Leica DG Summilux 15mm f/1.7 ASPH, M.Zuiko Digital 45mm 1:1.8, M.Zuiko Digital ED 75mm 1:1.8.
Leica D Vario-Elmar 14mm-150mm f/3.5 - f/5.6 ASPH.
OM-D E-M5, H-PS14042E, Gitzo GT1541T, Arca-Swiss Z1 DP ball-head.
Astrophotography: TEC 140 'scope, FLI ML16803 camera, ASA DDM60 Pro mount.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:27 pm 
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Uh oh! Ken (Rockwell that is) is doing it again...
Posting some of his "not so scientific" comparisons between the Nikon D300/D700, a Canon 5DII and his latest fav: the Leica M9.

Some comments from my side:
- Ken will never touch Capture NX 2 and thus will never give all his Nikon comparisons the best RAW converter that produces sharper images than Adobe CameraRAW and also corrects for CA. No wonder that the results are in favor of the M9.
- Ken uses either a D300 as a D3x surrogate or a 12MP D700 to compare to a 18MP and 21MP camera. The argument in the first place being that the pixel pitch of the D300 is even higher than from the D3x (correct). But he completely forgets about the different AA-filters of the D300 and the D3x. And the Leica has no AA-filter at all. Other people on the web have already reported that the D3x has a slight edge in resolution over the M9.

But you have to give him one thing: The comparison without the benefit of CaptureNX and its auto CA correction shows the CA problems of the lens. And in that you can see that the Leica ELMARIT-M 28mm f/2.8 has less CA in the corners than the Nikon 24-70mm f/2.8 (at 28mm). Weeeell yes: those who can read e.g. the Photozone review of the Nikkor on a D3x here know that this lens has a CA problem at wide angles.
But than: the Nikkor is a complicated zoom and the Leica is an easy fixed focal. Go ahead people, nothing (new) to be seen here...

Btw.: He also proves that the Canon 16-35mm f/2.8 L II is not the best performer at 28mm wide open either. But again: Nothing new.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:59 pm 
Thomas, do you really take Ken Rockwell seriously? I read him for the humour factor. He usually has a point, but then he goes overboard.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:01 pm 
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I only read his reviews to avoid such pitfalls in my own work :wink: :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:29 am 
I read it for humour too but sometimes he points out certain small aspects of the camera that the other news sites don't mention, then I go elsewhere and get proper information. :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:48 am 
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Hi folks,

Erwin Put's has added a fourth page to his M9 discussion so here's the link together with those already given in my earlier post:
More to follow...

Bob.

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Olympus OM-D E-M1 + M.Zuiko Digital ED 12-40mm f/2.8, Lumix 7-14mm f/4, Leica DG Summilux 15mm f/1.7 ASPH, M.Zuiko Digital 45mm 1:1.8, M.Zuiko Digital ED 75mm 1:1.8.
Leica D Vario-Elmar 14mm-150mm f/3.5 - f/5.6 ASPH.
OM-D E-M5, H-PS14042E, Gitzo GT1541T, Arca-Swiss Z1 DP ball-head.
Astrophotography: TEC 140 'scope, FLI ML16803 camera, ASA DDM60 Pro mount.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:49 am 
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Ken Rockwell is bad for newbies to read. Everyone else has learned to take things that he says with a truckload of salt though, I think. He has some good points but others are just complete opinion.

About the M9 though, It's over priced and overrated imo. I mean sure its small with full frame but it looks pretty bare bones to me. Can someone explain why some people are going nuts over this camera? Is it just because it's different from every other digital camera?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:58 am 
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Hi Shagrath,

I think there are a range of motives for buying into the M system, some good and some not so good. I've never had the pleasure of handling such a camera but extrapolating a lot from my earliest cameras back in the sixties I can understand, I think, the attraction and that doesn't even factor in the size difference.

But I also get a sense from the dedicated Leica forums that some Leica users are much more forgiving of their camera's shortcomings than they might be. Understandable, as there's no point in dissing the hand that feeds you and Leica is the only game in town if you want a digital rangefinder. But when someone says "feature uvw" could be improved or "feature xyz" could be added you'll often get responses which, when translated, read "push off and get a DSLR". :evil:

My own take is that I would love to have a digital rangefinder but not at that price. If the market was such that Leica was able to sell at volumes approaching even the smallest of the major DSLR players then I imagine the price of the M9 body might be way less than half what it currently is (big guess) and Leica would still make a handsome profit. But that's the world as I would like it and not as it is. Leica produce a unique camera and have to pay their various suppliers for limited production runs (Kodak not least I suspect for that unique sensor with its offset microlenses) and they also have to fund future research. I personally deeply regret the price but I don't think it's set that high because they are being greedy - far from it. :cry:

Bob.

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Olympus OM-D E-M1 + M.Zuiko Digital ED 12-40mm f/2.8, Lumix 7-14mm f/4, Leica DG Summilux 15mm f/1.7 ASPH, M.Zuiko Digital 45mm 1:1.8, M.Zuiko Digital ED 75mm 1:1.8.
Leica D Vario-Elmar 14mm-150mm f/3.5 - f/5.6 ASPH.
OM-D E-M5, H-PS14042E, Gitzo GT1541T, Arca-Swiss Z1 DP ball-head.
Astrophotography: TEC 140 'scope, FLI ML16803 camera, ASA DDM60 Pro mount.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:50 am 
Shagrath wrote:
About the M9 though, It's over priced and overrated imo. I mean sure its small with full frame but it looks pretty bare bones to me. Can someone explain why some people are going nuts over this camera? Is it just because it's different from every other digital camera?


There is a market for such a camera but for Leica to make a decent profit, they have to charge as much as they do. Without having actually used one, I think some photographers just seem to connect to the purist approach of it.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:46 pm 
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After my previous post I decided that I was doing too much guessing and not enough Googling. :P

I came up with this report which shows pretty conclusively that Leica isn't being greedy at all. :evil:
    Leica announces high fiscal year losses

    Leica Camera AG, Solms, Germany, has announced a loss of Euro 4.8 million (US-$ 6.9 million) for the fiscal year 2008/2009, which ended March 31, 2009. In the previous year, the company recorded a profit of Euro 3.0 million. Total sales of the group were Euro 156.2 million (US-$ 224.5 million), a decrease of 14.1 percent from fiscal 2007/2008.

    According to Leica CEO Rudolf Spiller, the negative development is mainly due to unfavorable economic environment in the company’s international markets, the discontinuation of certain products and the delayed launch of new models.

    Compared with the previous year, sales of system cameras declined 26.9 percent to Euro 41.8 million (US-$ 60.1 million). Sales of compact cameras shrank 10.3 percent to Euro 44.3 million (US-$ 63.7 million); the sports optics business recorded a decrease by 16.6 percent to Euro 24.8 million (US-$ 35.7 million).

    With sales of Euro 27.9 million (US-$ 40.1 million), the North American countries USA, Canada and Mexico continued to be Leica’s most important single export market. With sales of Euro 49.1 million (US-$ 70.6 million), Leica achieved 36.6 percent of its sales in Asia. The domestic business in Germany accounts for 15.9 percent of the company sales, with a volume of Euro 18.3 million (US-$ 26.3 million).

    Commenting on Leica’s prospect for the current fiscal year 2009/2010, Spiller said that a forecast was very difficult in view of the economic environment, adding that he expected a negative result. Leica will, however, continue its restructuring measures and intends to use its opportunities with new models including the Leica S2, which was first presented at photokina 2008, new lenses and additional products in the sport optics segment.
There's more info available direct from Leica on this page.

I can't find out what, for example, Canon's total R&D budget is (anyone know?) but I'm pretty sure it dwarfs Leica's annual turnover. By way of comparison Canon donated about €8.4 million to help with the recent Indonsian earthquake relief, that's about 5% of Leica's annual sales figure. In many ways it's remarkable that Leica survives at all, let alone being able to announce the X1, the M9 and the S2.

Bob.

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Olympus OM-D E-M1 + M.Zuiko Digital ED 12-40mm f/2.8, Lumix 7-14mm f/4, Leica DG Summilux 15mm f/1.7 ASPH, M.Zuiko Digital 45mm 1:1.8, M.Zuiko Digital ED 75mm 1:1.8.
Leica D Vario-Elmar 14mm-150mm f/3.5 - f/5.6 ASPH.
OM-D E-M5, H-PS14042E, Gitzo GT1541T, Arca-Swiss Z1 DP ball-head.
Astrophotography: TEC 140 'scope, FLI ML16803 camera, ASA DDM60 Pro mount.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:23 pm 
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R&D of Canon Japan (in total) is 4110 million USD and thus equals about 9% of sales. The sales of Leica system cameras is 1.5% of that :shock:

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:42 pm 
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Wow! Thanks for that, Thomas. It makes me even more in awe of what Leica are able to do. Much respect. 8)

Bob.

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Olympus OM-D E-M1 + M.Zuiko Digital ED 12-40mm f/2.8, Lumix 7-14mm f/4, Leica DG Summilux 15mm f/1.7 ASPH, M.Zuiko Digital 45mm 1:1.8, M.Zuiko Digital ED 75mm 1:1.8.
Leica D Vario-Elmar 14mm-150mm f/3.5 - f/5.6 ASPH.
OM-D E-M5, H-PS14042E, Gitzo GT1541T, Arca-Swiss Z1 DP ball-head.
Astrophotography: TEC 140 'scope, FLI ML16803 camera, ASA DDM60 Pro mount.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:17 am 
Jeff Ascough, former Leica users decides there is no turning back even Leica M9 has been launched.

http://jeffascough.typepad.com/jeff_asc ... raphy.html

Interesting comparison between Leica vs Canon 5D mark II from excellent wedding photographer in practice.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:51 am 
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Hi folks,

Erwin Put's has added a seventh page to his M9 discussion so here's the link together with those already given in my earlier post:
Bob.

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Olympus OM-D E-M1 + M.Zuiko Digital ED 12-40mm f/2.8, Lumix 7-14mm f/4, Leica DG Summilux 15mm f/1.7 ASPH, M.Zuiko Digital 45mm 1:1.8, M.Zuiko Digital ED 75mm 1:1.8.
Leica D Vario-Elmar 14mm-150mm f/3.5 - f/5.6 ASPH.
OM-D E-M5, H-PS14042E, Gitzo GT1541T, Arca-Swiss Z1 DP ball-head.
Astrophotography: TEC 140 'scope, FLI ML16803 camera, ASA DDM60 Pro mount.


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