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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:42 pm 
Hiya!

I'm thinking of getting a serious compact camera with manual controls. I'm stuck in between the Lumix LX3 & the Canon G10. I've been reading a lot about the LX3 and it sounds really promising to me. My only concern is that the image detail at 100% doesn't look as good as it does on the G9 / G10 samples. But, on the other hand, I don't know whether the G10 will have such a good response on low-light conditions.

I would be grateful if you could tell me your feelings about these two cameras as I still cannot decide which one to get (I know the G10 isn't available yet, but I could wait if it's worth it).

Also, does anyone know if there is any chance that Gordon Laing will do a review of the LX3 soon?

Thanks in advance.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:36 pm 
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Hi 450_soul, I can reveal we'll be reviewing the LX3 in the near future, but no-one can really comment on the G10 until we receive one for testing.


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 Post subject: LX3
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:16 am 
Don't waste your money on an LX3. I've been shooting with one for more than 3 weeks, and it's about the same image quality as the TZ5. The RAW mode (RW2) is a joke, not near the quality of FZ50 RAW. There's no magnification (60 mm = 1.2), and the wide-angle is also a joke, as is wide angle on most of these things. Why have wide angle to capture more detail when that detail is so noisy? The absolute best images I've gotten are worse than a G9's. I bought a 10 mp Casio EXZ1000 three and a half years(!) ago that has at least as good an image quality as the LX3.


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 Post subject: Reply to 450_soul
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:39 pm 
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Hi 450_soul,

Gordon has completed his LX3 review. It's very thorough and detailed. Perhaps it will help you make your decision. You might also want to check out some forum discussions, like the New Panasonic DMC-LX3 thread, which includes links to some additional reviews and test shots.

I too anticipated something fantastic from the LX3 since the specs sound so promising. After extensive hands-on tests, Gordon gave the camera a Recommended rating, but not a Highly Recommended rating. For the sake of comparison, note that Gordon gave a Highly Recommended rating to the TZ5 (compact, no manual control) and the FZ18 (superzoom, full manual control). The FZ18 has recently been replaced by the FZ28, which hasn't been reviewed on Camera Labs yet, but it's getting extremely good owner reviews. The FZ28 isn't compact, but it is much smaller and lighter than a DSLR -- it fits easily into a small camera bag. It's currently in the top 5 or top 10 best-selling cameras, depending on whose list you check.

If you really want a versatile compact camera, the TZ5 is an excellent value, and just about everyone who owns one seems to love it (e.g., check out the TZ5 customer feedback on Amazon.com). The TZ5 doesn't offer manual control, but its Intelligent Auto mode (which automatically addresses half a dozen different factors) is extremely good.

Are you sure you need both compact size and manual control? That's going to roughly double the price of your camera. If I really wanted both, I might be more inclined to get the Canon G10 after reading Gordon's review of the LX3 and Dale Thorn's personal experiences with the LX3. If I wanted compact size without manual control, I'd definitely get the TZ5 for about half the price of the LX3. No other automatic compact comes close to the features of the TZ5. I personally don't care about compact size, but I would like the option of full manual control, which is why I'm going to get myself an FZ28. It all depends on what's important to you and how you plan to use your camera.

Good luck,

Fred

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Frederick W. Chapman: Consultant & Scientist @ F.W. Chapman Solutions / Expertise in Web Design, Digital Imaging, E-Learning, Math & Comp Sci / www.fwchapman.com

Cameras: Oly E-P1; Pan G1, FZ28, LZ10 | FT Lenses: Oly 50mm f/2.0; Sig 18-50mm f/2.8, 70-200mm f/2.8 | MFT Lenses: Pan 20mm f/1.7, 14-45mm f/3.5-5.6, 45-200mm f/4-5.6


Last edited by fwchapman on Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: LX3 Zoom Range
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:49 pm 
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P.S. 450_soul, how important is zoom range to you? The LX3 has an extremely limited zoom range. The G9/G10, TZ5, and FZ28 all reach much further than the LX3 -- that means the G9/G10, TZ5, and FZ28 can all easily get shots which the LX3 can never get. Does that matter for the kinds of pictures you'd like to take?

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Frederick W. Chapman: Consultant & Scientist @ F.W. Chapman Solutions / Expertise in Web Design, Digital Imaging, E-Learning, Math & Comp Sci / www.fwchapman.com

Cameras: Oly E-P1; Pan G1, FZ28, LZ10 | FT Lenses: Oly 50mm f/2.0; Sig 18-50mm f/2.8, 70-200mm f/2.8 | MFT Lenses: Pan 20mm f/1.7, 14-45mm f/3.5-5.6, 45-200mm f/4-5.6


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:22 pm 
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450_soul, you might also be interested in a forum discussion about Gordon's review of the LX3:

http://www.cameralabs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=70609

Fred

_________________
Frederick W. Chapman: Consultant & Scientist @ F.W. Chapman Solutions / Expertise in Web Design, Digital Imaging, E-Learning, Math & Comp Sci / www.fwchapman.com

Cameras: Oly E-P1; Pan G1, FZ28, LZ10 | FT Lenses: Oly 50mm f/2.0; Sig 18-50mm f/2.8, 70-200mm f/2.8 | MFT Lenses: Pan 20mm f/1.7, 14-45mm f/3.5-5.6, 45-200mm f/4-5.6


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 Post subject: LX3 or G10
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:28 pm 
If you want to see an amazing difference in image quality, DO NOT trust the forums or the vendors. Take a photo of a group of trees at a distance of about 50-100 yards. You will see immediately the great superiority of a camera like the G10 over the LX3. All those other photos can mask problems, but the trees and leaves are too complex to fake or manipulate.


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 Post subject: LX3
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:36 pm 
Thank you everyone for your replies.

dalethorn, I appreciate the image quality is better on the G9/G10 in some situations. Things like the grass or the trees, as you say, look sharper and more detailed on the G9 (and so they will on the G10). But that's only when using ISO is 80-100. Above that ISO, the noise on the G9 just makes the IQ worse than that of the LX3. IMO, areas with shadows look worse on the G9 than on the LX3.

fwchapman, thanks for your advise. I feel the zoom range is not so important to me. In fact, I don't use it for most part of the pictues I take at present. However, I really miss a wide angle lens. So I think the FZ28 is not the right model for me. Not only because of that, but because I really want something compact, that could fit easily in my jacket pocket and is not heavy.

Gordon, congratulations on your review of the LX3! I've just finished reading (and watching!) it and it's really great. I'll write more about this in the appropiate post.

I think the LX3 will fill my needs better than the G9/G10, but I don't discard anything yet.

Could Gordon, dalethorn or other users of the LX3 post their feelings about the pop-up flash & the lens cap? Thanks.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:07 pm 
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Hi 450_soul - concerning the lens cap, there's not much to say really - it clips on and off without difficulty - it's just that it takes you time to do so, and if you're in a real rush, that might annoy you. Of course every DSLR uses lens caps, so it's not a massive deal, but it's worth noting when you're used to the convenience of built-in sliding lens caps.


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 Post subject: Noise
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:59 pm 
Noise at higher ISO's? The LX3 will still be trounced by the G10 at ISO400 or 800. Try it and see. I've gotten what I feel are decent ISO400 photos with the TZ5, so I'm not impressed by the arguments. If someone can take real-world pics with the G10 and LX3 side by side, they'll be amazed at the difference those "extra" five megapixels make. And post those pics full-res where I can see them. The LL forum has no restrictions and doesn't require linking. Just upload - that's it.


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 Post subject: Lens cap
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:04 pm 
Gordon Laing wrote:
.......it clips on and off without difficulty - it's just that it takes you time to do so, and if you're in a real rush, that might annoy you.......

I have no problem with the lens cap. I use the lens cap strap, and I pop the cap and go to work. You may have to get used to a couple of hand motions to keep it away from in front of the lens, but that will come very easy, trust me.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:59 pm 
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Hi, it's me, 450_soul, only that I've just changed my profile as I thought I don't have that soul any longer, as I don't have the Canon 450D now :D So I will be Atlas from now on.

Thanks Gordon and dalethorn for your replies. So the lens cap is not a big issue then. The more I read, the more I think the LX3 will be the one for me. Still thinking...

Could you answer a couple of questions more for me?

1. What about the pop-up flash? I've always used the built-in camera flash, but it doesn't need to pop-up first. I would like to know your feelings in this respect.

2. Suppose there are three coins, one 3 cm away from the camera, another one 4 cm away from the camera, and the last one 5 cm away from the camera. Using the macro, can I get the three coins in focus on the same picture? Can I get the coin I prefer in focus and the other two blurry? How to alter the setting to get these effects? How does this compare between the G9 & LX3?

Thanks again.


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 Post subject: LX3
PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 8:53 pm 
Atlas wrote:
1. What about the pop-up flash?.......
2........Using the macro, can I get the three coins in focus on the same picture? Can I get the coin I prefer in focus and the other two blurry? How to alter the setting to get these effects? How does this compare between the G9 & LX3? Thanks again.

The popup flash works fine, except when you're very close, then it's overexposed. The macro works best at widest zoom (24mm), but anything away from the center will be blurry. Also with macro, many objects that close up will not be in focus properly, insects for example, unless you set F8 Aperture priority, in which case you will need a lot of light. A good technique is to have someone hold a couple of flashlights at right and left angles to the subject while you press the shutter.


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 Post subject: Lens cap
PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:03 am 
Good news! Now there's a reason the lens cap is a *great* addition to the LX3: The cap clicks into place and doesn't fall off, and, the lens will *not* open when the camera accidentally turns on in a pocket or other enclosure, even when the ON switch is ON and the playback switch is UP (ready to shoot), as long as the lens cap is on.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:54 pm 
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Hi,

Without samples from the G10 they are hard to compare. Here are my thoughts, without regard to comparitive image quality at equal ISOs.
LX 3 Advantages

- F2/2.8 makes it about 1 f/stop faster than the G10. so at the same shutter speed you can use a lower ISO (e.g. ISO 200 vs. ISO 400).

- 24mm vs. 28mm For me this was a major factor in my decision to buy the LX3. I recently spent a few days in Paris with my Olympus E-3 and Panasonic TZ3 and found the I used 24mm with my E-3 (24mm to 120mm full frame lens equivalent) quite often and wished it could go wider.

- Continuous Shooting 2.5 fps vs. .7

- Multiple Aspect Ratios - I love this feature. It allows you to select 4:3, 3:2 or 16:9 and retain the angle of view for the selected aspect ration. So you get a real 24mm even in 16:9 rather than a cropped aspect ratio of less than 24mm. You do, necessarily, lose a bit of resolution when you select an aspect ratio wider than 4:3. I don't think the G10 has this feature, but I'm not sure.

- Size - the LX3 is a little lighter and smaller than the G10. That may be the difference between being able to carry it in your pants pocket or not. That was important to me. It may not be important to you.

I don't care about the movie modes, so I won't comment.

G10 Advantages

- Much longer 140mm vs. 60mm. For some people the LX3's 60mm limit will simply not be enough. For me, I will trade it for the extra wide angle. If your willing to live with less resolution you can get 72mm at 7MP, 86mm at 5MP and 108MM at 3MP. I assume you can use less resolution on the G10 to go out beyond 140mm.

- Increased resolution 14.7 vs. 10.1 We will see if this results in more noise and/or less dynamic range with the G10.

- Optical Viewfinder This may be important to you. I don't know how good it is, but it adust as you change focal length. With the LX3 you need to purchase an attachment and it does not zoom with the lens. The LCD on the LX3 is the best that I have used and I don't think I will need to bother with the optical viewfinder. Also, I find that I like using manual mode where when you half press the shutter you can see your exposure in advance.

I think it may be best to wait to the G10 comes out and see how the quality of its pictures compares, unless you know you prefer the size/weight , f2/2.8 lens speed and wider lens of the LX3.

P.S. I note some have mentioned the TZ5. Gordon's actual rating for the LX3 was one point higher. Personally I would not Highly Recommend the TZ5 due to its lack of manual control. Also, Gordon ranked its image quality1 point lower than the LX3.

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Frank


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