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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:47 pm 
Thanks Fred,
yeh I guess there are always something to consider when you are gonna buy a carmea. The only thing I don't like about the FZ28 is that its Quicktime movie mode. QT use alot more space on a memorycard than AVI. I'm still gonna wait to see what people say about the FZ28 when it's out in the shops, but i will not buy the FZ18 'cus the prize is almost the same on the new FZ28 here in DK

anyway here is a few more FZ28 sample pictures
http://panasonic.jp/dc/gallery/fz28.html

take care, bentn


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 Post subject: Reply to Mark
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:38 pm 
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Hi Mark,

I did some Google searches to try to find out if any Panasonic Lumix cameras have that dual shot feature (taking one picture with flash and one without). I can't be certain, but it seems like it's exclusively available on FujiFilm cameras.

Thanks for the info on Li-ion vs. NiMH batteries. It sounds like Li-ion batteries will let you take more camera shots before recharging than NiMH batteries with the same weight. I gather there's a tradeoff between the lower price price and ready availability of NiMH and the higher performance of Li-ion.

I think I'd rather pay more for batteries and get better performance in my camera. There are third-party Li-ion battery packs which work with the FZ18 and FZ28 but don't cost too much -- for example, the Lenmar DLP006 replacement battery for the Panasonic CGR-S006A/1B, which is available on Price Grabber and Amazon for around US$15-20.

Fred

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Frederick W. Chapman: Consultant & Scientist @ F.W. Chapman Solutions / Expertise in Web Design, Digital Imaging, E-Learning, Math & Comp Sci / www.fwchapman.com

Cameras: Oly E-P1; Pan G1, FZ28, LZ10 | FT Lenses: Oly 50mm f/2.0; Sig 18-50mm f/2.8, 70-200mm f/2.8 | MFT Lenses: Pan 20mm f/1.7, 14-45mm f/3.5-5.6, 45-200mm f/4-5.6


Last edited by fwchapman on Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:03 pm 
The topic about Ni-MH vs. Li-Ion came up in this thread too.

And the Natural+Flash option is indeed a very useful feature. Both photos complement each other nicely.

Ben
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When in doubt..... Press the shutter.


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 Post subject: Reply to Ben
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:12 pm 
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Cam-I-Am wrote:
The topic about Ni-MH vs. Li-Ion came up in this thread too.

Ben, thanks for the pointer to the other thread. I see you feel pretty strongly about proprietary accessories. I agree with you that it's a racket, but I have a different solution: I like low-cost third-party accessories. Any time the OEM gets carried away with high-priced accessories, some enterprising third party will swoop in and save us all by offering low-priced equivalents. That's the beauty of free enterprise! :) -Fred

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Frederick W. Chapman: Consultant & Scientist @ F.W. Chapman Solutions / Expertise in Web Design, Digital Imaging, E-Learning, Math & Comp Sci / www.fwchapman.com

Cameras: Oly E-P1; Pan G1, FZ28, LZ10 | FT Lenses: Oly 50mm f/2.0; Sig 18-50mm f/2.8, 70-200mm f/2.8 | MFT Lenses: Pan 20mm f/1.7, 14-45mm f/3.5-5.6, 45-200mm f/4-5.6


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:35 pm 
You're welcome. I know how trying to select a camera can lead to serious information overload. :shock:

Of course third-party alternatives are a lesser 'evil' option but in the case of batteries it's also yet another charger and the capacity of Li-Ion doesn't compare favourably to AA's (or AAA's) either as you could read in that thread.

For people who do not yet have Ni-MH AA's the disadvantage of proprietary batteries isn't felt that strongly of course because they'd have to buy these AA's too.

Ben
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When in doubt..... Press the shutter.


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 Post subject: Reply to Ben
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:17 pm 
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Cam-I-Am wrote:
the capacity of Li-Ion doesn't compare favourably to AA's (or AAA's) either as you could read in that thread.

Ben,

By "capacity" do you mean "energy density" or something else? I read that Li-ion batteries have a higher energy density than other kinds of rechargeable batteries, meaning they can store more energy in the same amount of weight.

According to what I've read, Li-ion batteries do compare very favorably to NiMH and NiCd batteries in terms of their performance (higher energy density, lower self-discharge rate, can be charged to any level anytime during in the charge-discharge cycle):

http://www.greenbatteries.com/libafa.html#Advantage%20of%20Li-ion

Of course, there is also a down side to Li-ion batteries (proprietary form factor, special charger, special internal circuitry to protect against overcharging or excessive discharging):

http://www.greenbatteries.com/libafa.html#Disadvantage%20of%20Li-ion

I like NiMH batteries a lot, for some of the very reasons you mentioned in your other thread, and because they address the "memory" issues that plague NiCd batteries. I have some NiMH batteries and a fast charger which I use to power various things, like my wireless mouse. In high-end electronics, like a laptop or a cell phone, I prefer Li-ion batteries because they do have some advantages over NiMH batteries. With a digital camera, I can really see going with either Li-ion or NiMH, depending on your philosophical and/or financial inclinations.

In short, I use Li-ion, NiMH, and NiCd batteries, all for different things. Life is good. :)

Fred

_________________
Frederick W. Chapman: Consultant & Scientist @ F.W. Chapman Solutions / Expertise in Web Design, Digital Imaging, E-Learning, Math & Comp Sci / www.fwchapman.com

Cameras: Oly E-P1; Pan G1, FZ28, LZ10 | FT Lenses: Oly 50mm f/2.0; Sig 18-50mm f/2.8, 70-200mm f/2.8 | MFT Lenses: Pan 20mm f/1.7, 14-45mm f/3.5-5.6, 45-200mm f/4-5.6


Last edited by fwchapman on Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:27 pm 
Some actual out of the machine samples

http://panasonic.jp/dc/gallery/fz28.html


A couple of remarks:
-all ISO 100
-I can see ... noise... but nitpicking probably
-lens seems to be on par with the FZ18 but no wide or teleshot samples

Still refreshing links to check for real reviews every couple of hours.
I hope we will see some users who will post a photo, or more then one, tomorrow.


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 Post subject: Re: Reply to Ben
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:32 pm 
fwchapman wrote:
By "capacity" do you mean "energy density" or something else? I read that Li-ion batteries have a higher energy density than other kinds of rechargeable batteries, meaning they can store more energy in the same amount of weight.

I referred to the real-life observation I made there with regards to the capacity in mAh of the Panasonic FZ-8/18 battery compared to AAA's and the remark I quoted from the Fuji camera review. Whatever the maximum theoretic energy density per volume(!) may be for Li-Ion in practice that FZ-8 battery did not impress and the reviewer felt the change to Li-Ion use led to less shots per charge.

It's interesting to see that Pentax has recently started to use AA's in their K200D DSLR. A development I thoroughly applaud. And I am not the only one. Many people see it as a great benefit of this camera.

Of course Li-Ion batteries have their use. They are undoubtedly lighter. But for cameras I think Ni-MH generally offers more advantages than Li-Ion. To me anyway.

Ben
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When in doubt..... Press the shutter.


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 Post subject: Re: Reply to Ben
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:41 am 
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Cam-I-Am wrote:
Of course Li-Ion batteries have their use. They are undoubtedly lighter. But for cameras I think Ni-MH generally offers more advantages than Li-Ion. To me anyway.

Ben, thanks for explaining what you meant. If NiMH batteries offer more actual shots per charge than Li-ion batteries without increasing the total camera weight too much, I'd say that's a pretty convincing argument. Wow, that Li-ion powered motorcycle is cool! :) -Fred

_________________
Frederick W. Chapman: Consultant & Scientist @ F.W. Chapman Solutions / Expertise in Web Design, Digital Imaging, E-Learning, Math & Comp Sci / www.fwchapman.com

Cameras: Oly E-P1; Pan G1, FZ28, LZ10 | FT Lenses: Oly 50mm f/2.0; Sig 18-50mm f/2.8, 70-200mm f/2.8 | MFT Lenses: Pan 20mm f/1.7, 14-45mm f/3.5-5.6, 45-200mm f/4-5.6


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:34 am 
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I'm very impressed by the specs of the new LX3 and wonder if I should consider it instead of the new FZ28. (My hunch is that the FZ28 is probably a better match for my particular needs.) To get some additional input, I posted my question on the Panasonic LX3 thread. I invite you all to go there and share your thoughts!

Fred

_________________
Frederick W. Chapman: Consultant & Scientist @ F.W. Chapman Solutions / Expertise in Web Design, Digital Imaging, E-Learning, Math & Comp Sci / www.fwchapman.com

Cameras: Oly E-P1; Pan G1, FZ28, LZ10 | FT Lenses: Oly 50mm f/2.0; Sig 18-50mm f/2.8, 70-200mm f/2.8 | MFT Lenses: Pan 20mm f/1.7, 14-45mm f/3.5-5.6, 45-200mm f/4-5.6


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 Post subject: Re: Reply to Luc
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:50 am 
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fwchapman wrote:
Hi Luc,

Welcome to the forum! It's good to meet another person who is trying to decide between the FZ18 and the FZ28. If the FZ28 lives up to its specs in actual testing, I'll probably get it -- unless the price on the FZ18 drops so much that it becomes a bargain I can't resist!

Best wishes,

Fred

Well that was the case for me in Australia. The S5IS was stubbornly resisting price cuts, and then i saw the FZ18 going for $A400, which is about $200 off. Thought about it for a day or two then decided it was just too good to miss, so went back. asked for a cash price and it dropped to $370. Bargain. So far, I'm very pleased with it. Love the zoom and intelligent auto.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:51 am 
As a first time digital camera owner with the Lumix FZ18, i can say that i'm pleased.

As all the reviews said, the camera is fun to use and due to some dslr features and fast operation it forces you to learn photography with its program/aperture/shuttle priority modes, i started with program mode and slowly getting into aperture priority as my skills and understanding of photography rise up, its a long way to go ofcourse but this camera surely helps.

Feature wise its got it all, cant complain here, Panasonic in my opinion packs very good electronics that are ahead of the pack compared to other manufacturers, its achilles heel is the Venus engine, rather simple compared to Canons engine, especially with noise reduction algorithms.

Now to the question of noise...noise is...noise, and with this camera class of small sensors, its unavoidable. From my research on the problem of sensor noise i came to some revealing conclusions... good noise, which means well controlled by the engine with no colored specs/blotches/bands contributes to detail and sharpness, i was amazed by the detail and sharpness the Olympus entry lever DSLR cameras exhibit when the Noise Reduction is turned off according to a professional reviewer, http://www.wrotniak.net/photo/43/e510-fs.html . Personally i prefer this kind of noise any day at any ISO instead of smeared/blurred plastic looking pictures with Noise Reduction on. The same happens with the Panny FZ18, ofcourse nowhere near DSLR quality, reducing noise reduction to -2 on the Panny brings more noise but also more detail and natural sharpness, its my prefered setting on this camera.

Unfortunately, Noise Reduction can't be turned off in Panasonic cameras, according to my tests with the FZ18 this happens necessarily because NR reduces hot/stuck pixels that plague almost all small sensors, with the NR setting at -2, one or two red/blue colored pixels,chroma noise, comes through above ISO 200 in dark areas, not a problem though if you post process your images and run them through a software color noise reduction function. I use Lightzone 3 for my post process needs.

Comparing the FZ18 with the FZ28 i can surely say that the new sensor and especially the new Venus IV engine will bring more quality images, so for an newcomer on digital cameras he will be very pleased, personally as an already owner of the FZ18 i cant see any reason to upgrade, my purchase was based in learning photography and brushing up my skills with a great first time small camera and later jump ship to the DSLR world with Olympus entry level cameras. Ofcourse the Panny will stay with me.

So the answer to the question of which model?, it depends on how deep is your purse or your patience...personally i take the patience route and would be waiting a little time for the FZ18 prices to drop, and they will when the FZ28 hits the stores sometime in september, but if you're itching for a new cam, the FZ28 would be a great first timer.

Thanks for reading this and excuse me for my english.

p.s.

Congratulation to the site for honest reviews, i enjoy the site layout, the videos and the friendly attitude on the forums, very pleased.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:35 pm 
here is a review from someone who got the FZ28....it's not all good news l'm afraid
take care..

http://artzen2.com/artzen2-0083.htm


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 Post subject: Reply to bentn
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:54 pm 
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bentn wrote:
here is a review from someone who got the FZ28....it's not all good news l'm afraid
take care..

http://artzen2.com/artzen2-0083.htm

bentn, thanks for posting this review, which I read with great interest. The author of that review also posted some pictures the day after. He apparently plans to continue reviewing the camera as he gains more experience with it, so it would be worth revisiting his website from time to time.

It sounds like there are some tradeoffs in the FZ28 vs. the FZ18. It's hard for me to be sure about my photography style since I don't have one yet, but I imagine myself using the LCD and JPEG more than the EVF and RAW. That means the FZ18-FZ28 line is evolving in a way which matches how I expect to use my camera. I think this is the reviewer's point -- that the design changes in the FZ28 reflect a new approach to photography which takes advantage of the strengths of the new technology. Since the whole thing is new to me, I think I'll be okay with that.

Fred

_________________
Frederick W. Chapman: Consultant & Scientist @ F.W. Chapman Solutions / Expertise in Web Design, Digital Imaging, E-Learning, Math & Comp Sci / www.fwchapman.com

Cameras: Oly E-P1; Pan G1, FZ28, LZ10 | FT Lenses: Oly 50mm f/2.0; Sig 18-50mm f/2.8, 70-200mm f/2.8 | MFT Lenses: Pan 20mm f/1.7, 14-45mm f/3.5-5.6, 45-200mm f/4-5.6


Last edited by fwchapman on Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:33 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:05 pm 
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Peter B and gimpr, thanks for posting your experiences with the FZ18. It's encouraging to hear from people who really like their camera. gimpr, I was especially intrigued by your observations on increasing sharpness and detail by reducing noise reduction -- sounds like a technique worth remembering!

I am playing a waiting game, trying to be as patient as I can. I'll probably wait until September before I make an actual purchase. That will give me a little more time to hear from reviewers who have hands-on experience with the FZ28. I've heard so many good things about the Panasonic Lumix line and superb Leica lenses from both customers and professional reviewers alike that I think it would be hard to go wrong with any of the FZ18, FZ28, or LX3. Right now, the FZ28 is my favorite, but that could change.

Watching and waiting,

Fred

_________________
Frederick W. Chapman: Consultant & Scientist @ F.W. Chapman Solutions / Expertise in Web Design, Digital Imaging, E-Learning, Math & Comp Sci / www.fwchapman.com

Cameras: Oly E-P1; Pan G1, FZ28, LZ10 | FT Lenses: Oly 50mm f/2.0; Sig 18-50mm f/2.8, 70-200mm f/2.8 | MFT Lenses: Pan 20mm f/1.7, 14-45mm f/3.5-5.6, 45-200mm f/4-5.6


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