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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:03 pm 
Hey Gordon:
Yes, I checked out the vimeo clips, but the ambiance sound in the three clips upstaged the type of noises I experienced with the TZ7.

What I did do, and since I started this whole thing about zoom/autofocus noise, was to look for those three clips I recorded in my office the first day I received the TZ7. What I did was probably just delete them right away, in the wake of boxing up the camera and sending it back the next day.

I'll keep looking.

It's probably a bit challenging for you to find an ambiance neutral environment for noise testing there in your beach side moutainous seagull laden area (which reminds me when I was living in South Beach Florida, lucky you.)

I suppose one could also go to a library, up to the third floor, back in the tax books section. Ha ha.

When I get the TZ10 (tue/wed next week), I'll check it out. I'll do a deliberate "forensic" zoom/autofocus motor noise check again and post my results. I can post to a vimeo pro or youtube account for inspection.

By the way I thought that Chase Charvis Interview was quite original and insightful. For those of you who didn't see here is the link - http://www.cameralabs.com/interviews/Chase_Jarvis_interview_Queenstown_New_Zealand/.

I'll look for your next behind the scenes - live on the set interview at some photoshoot somewhere - talking shop with the next photographer about his camera choices.


Last edited by MikesMultiMedia on Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:38 am 
I'm currently waiting for the TZ10 to arrive this tue/wed.

I've raised my concerns regarding the noise made by the zoom / autofocus motors in the camera, as far as my first experience with the TZ7 a couple of weeks ago.

Gordon has discussed the issue of zoom noise, and has posted sample videos reviewing same as follows:

Quote:
Staying on the subject of zooming while filming, the TZ10 / ZS7 slows its motor right down to minimise operational noise, taking a leisurely 11 seconds to go from one end of the range to the other. If you're filming in absolute silent conditions, you'll still hear the motor whirring very faintly, but in our outdoor footage it was generally masked by ambient noise levels, with a much bigger issue being the sharp sound if you quickly let go of the spring-loaded zoom rocker. Comparing footage shot with the TZ7 / ZS3, the new model made a similar amount of operational noise. See clip at: http://www.vimeo.com/3676507


The sample clips do illustrate, however, that noise generated by the zoom is perhaps drowned out by the natural outdoor ambiance in his sample clips - which is good. Because many video recording conditions will have their fair share of existing ambiance.

However, in my experience with the TZ7, I was indoors, in a quiet space.

Which has raised my concerns about the noise levels I am to experience when I get the TZ10.

While waiting for the TZ10, and over this weekend, I went ahead and produced a short noise study stemming from the video clips I made when I had the TZ7 for a few hours, and before I returned it the next day.

I posted the study under the appropriate forum for the TZ7 here:
http://www.cameralabs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=181609#181609 or you can check it out here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4zLINEf46M

I'll perform a similar noise study for the TZ10 when I get it.

In the meanwhile, I hope my contribution to the discussion of the TZ7 is helpful.

I may add, that in today's cameras, it appears that the manufacturers are leaning to enhance the audio recording capabilities of their consumer cameras.

I believe this may be a mixed blessing, because now, the on board microphones, perhaps more sensitive than before, are now picking up "everything" that was perhaps there before. Where in previous models, the little small microphone hole may not have picked up as readily.

I hope the standard would be to include an external stereo microphone jack on these cameras as time go on. This dramatically expands the quality capabilities of these cameras, if the consumer chooses to invest the effort in their photo/video productions.

I do have an old TZ1, and may conduct a similar noise study on that camera as well. Again, the older TZ1 has a small audio recording microphone hole, and perhaps, the noise is mechanically the same as on the new cameras, but, because the older camera's microphones were not very sensitive, they just didn't pick up the mechanical noise made by the zoom and autofocus motors.

In any case, I look forward in sharing my noise study observations of the TZ10 in the near future.


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 Post subject: So far so good
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:00 pm 
I like the feel and weight of the camera.

It's sleek, and right away out of the box was able to take pictures of what I needed. For example, of the box, serial number, packaging, invoice, etc. All photos were easy to just point and shoot, and all were normally exposed (where the flash was used on all).

This was surely a complete opposite experience than with the Canon PowerShot SX20 IS I had last week or so.

The canon refused to adjust the flash for simple shots of what I describe above.

The screen is very nice, I completely was absorbed with the process of framing my shots, vs. noticing the screen being too small, strange design, or even that it was a flip out or not.

Just smooth sailing out of the box.

Very close macro focus, was able to be cm's away from my old TZ1, and got right up in there to the dials, and buttons, even made it easier to read than looking directly at the object itself.

The size is also more compact than my TZ1, and now I'm shopping for a nice protective belt case for it, almost feel I may need to get a cell phone based belt case, its that compact.

Do I miss the 20x zoom as with the Canon - Nope, not at all. Don't need it, if 12x wasn't good, then break out the 70-200mm VRII, with a 1.7 TCE II, and go to town.

I'm also happy I resorted to waiving the idea of going to a super zoom vs. the 12x compacts. The supper zoom really required a separate carry case, and was a non-pocketable item, and therefore, its use and bring-along ability would have suffered, and I would have had it shelved, more so than not.

I'f I have to carry a case for anything, I'll go ahead and bring my SLR. I mean, the case isn't that much bigger, and if your lugging something, may as well lug the bad boy around.

After I have fun with the camera, I'll upload some interesting material if I encounter any.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:46 am 
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Glad you're happy so far Mike!

At the risk of ruining this honeymoon period, what do you think of the zoom noise while filming?!


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 Post subject: Zoom Noise and the TZ10
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:13 am 
Well, the empty champaige glasses are still collecting around the party room here with the TZ10 taking center stage. Its gotten a little loose and wild, and the neighbors are probably ready to call security to tell us to turn the music down.

After placing the cork screw down long enough to focus my ears on the TZ10 during a zoom, I did hear the zoom engine working. It sounded smooth and unremarkable. None of the clips were appropriate for examing any zoom motor noise on the resultng video clip, so as you say, the verdict is still pending.

Because I want to be objective in the zoom noise survey, I'd like to put the camera through a similar testing cycle along the methods I used in my TZ7 noise study posted earlier.

I'm curious to see, or rather "listen" to the results, and I'll share those findings in my next report in the Journals of Research and Development here at CameraLabs.com..

Conducting a meaningful noises study can be an interesting challenge.

I mean, without having access to NASA's quiet room for the research, I'll have to come up with a testing technique that will result in observable, publishable results.

Got to hand it to you Gordon, you've been conducting reviews for a while now, and with my limited focus in this area, the extent of the effort involved becomes more apparent at every turn.

Give me an opportunity to devise a testing model to answer the question responsibly.

For now, a taken a couple of low light video's off my balcony, down to a community road with sparse street lighting. The playback in the unit's screen was sufficient. I did notice the AVCHD format left a barrage of files on the SD card, and may take some adapting to. I switched it to MJPEG for latter clips.

I did notice those "transporter" beam streaks that occur with the lights hit the lens causing the effect. I've noticed this a multiple occasions in the couple of clips around the house. Seems pretty prevalent. Wondering about how to "fix" this - may have to be a user/video taking technique adaptation - in short, avoid the lights and angles which cause the issue, if possible.

Q: By the way, have you finished the video tour for this model? Didn't see it earlier today, and look forward to it.

I know that video productions are time consuming, trust me, I just prepared a three minute no thrills video exhibit for a criminal court hearing which took place earlier today. Took all day once the content material was acquired.

It’s 3:13 a.m. here, Atlanta, GA.


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 Post subject: GPS accuracy
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:28 pm 
Gordon, do you know already which of the cameras had the most accurate GPS positioning?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:03 pm 
I took a quick look at the zoom noise, seems like it is just as prevalent as it was with the TZ7. I predict that my zoom noise study will yield similar results. I've added an additional modification to the noise test which yielded unexpected results as one would think would happen. So stay tuned.

Mode Dial Selector:

One major difference between the TZ10 and TZ7 is the mode dial.

The TZ7 placed the mode dial at the extreme top right of the camera. This made it very difficult to use with your right hand holding the camera with just the one hand. When you needed to move the mode dial, you needed to shuffle your grab to move your thumb to this extreme top right position of the dial.

So the TZ10 placed (or returned) the Mode dial on the top, just right of center position.

This was where the right hand thumb comfortably finds itself when holding the camera with one hand.

A slight raise of the thumb, and your on the mode dial.

Thank you panasonic.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:06 pm 
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Hi Mike, I've filmed all my segments for the TZ10 - and Canon 550D / T2i - video reviews, but won't get round to editing them for a while yet as I have some written reviews which need to be completed first - hopefully in the next couple of weeks! In the meantime, keep us updated with all your discoveries on the camera!

Hi Kwaku, I'd encourage you to read the first results page on my TZ10 or Sony HX5 reviews, as this discusses GPS accuracy. In my first test, the Sony actually came up with a more accurate position, but it took longer to acquire a signal, whereas the Panasonic came up quicker with a lock. Noticing the Panasonic was a few meters out, I returned to the same location and gave it longer before taking the photo - this time the position was much more accurate.

So in my non-scientific comparison, I'd say both cameras have the potential to be equally accurate, given the same time to search for satellites. I would however warn Panasonic owners that for the most accurate results, they should wait for at least a few seconds after the camera's reported a lock before taking the photo. The longer you wait, the more satellites are acquired, in turn, giving a more accurate reading.

I've also included some GPS co-ordinates in my galleries on both reviews.

As always I'd love to hear from others about their experiences with the GPS on these cameras.

Gordon


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 Post subject: GPS accuracy
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:37 am 
Thanks Gordon, and sorry to make you explain it again to me in particular. I read both reviews eagerly as soon as you posted them, and I even did some diagonal reading later on in search for the update of the gps accuracy issue, but didn't spot it.

I ordered my hx5v yesterday. In case anybody is interested, here's the rationale of my choice:

I want a compact small and light enough to take everywhere. Want wide angle, good zoom, good video, low-light and easy geotagging. The ony candidates soon reduced to TZ10 and HX5V (Samsung HZ35W a bit too bulky, Nikon S8000 starts zoom at 30mm, Canon SX210 IS no gps... a very good candidate would have been soon-to-come Fuji F80 EXR if it had gps, since it will beat the field in the important low-light department...)

So between the Pany and the Sony:

· I'd prefer 12x to 10x, but the "difference" is not "2x" (as somebody posted somewhere :-), but a 1.2 ratio (not that much). And in return, the Sony is also slightly lighter and smaller.

· Image quality seems just a little bit better with the Pany in daylight (I'd prefer some more detail than aggressive NR), but with good lighting pictures are "easy" in general and there won't be much difference: acceptable quality for me in both cases.

· Raw low-light seems to be quite similar on both models (no matter how much fuzz and publicity Sony wants to make of its sensor). By "raw" I mean simply single-frame high-ISO pics (jpeg of course, not raw). So no bracketing, compositing and bells and whistles doing their lab job in-camera. Honestly, "raw low-light" disappoints me a little in both cameras; I would've preferred a Fuji EXR sensor much better than Sony's. Or at least a more luminous glass (f3.5 is a bit too little).

· So the deciding factor for me is the "bells-and-whistles" low-light (as opposed to "raw" low-light). You know what I mean: HHT, AMB, backlight HDR... and of course 10 fps full-res, wich not only allows the former, but is of great value in itself.

· Other bells & whistles I value are smile and blink detection, iSweet Panorama (I like Panoramas: I spend hours stitching images with free autostitch.exe, which I recommend, but now the camera will save me time and solve the moving-subject problem), etc.

· Other differences for me are minor. Even the gps ones: most important for me is conveniently easy image geotagging, not in-camera landmark info, etc. Even the screen resoultion: at my age I'm starting to have trouble focusing at short distances without glasses, so for me the raw 3-inch display is more important than a resolution I won't fully appreciate. PASM of course is better than Sony's limited options, but not crucial for me either (at least I have M, even if only two apertures).

So the bottom line is: the Pany is a bit better in some aspects and the Sony a bit better in other aspects, but there are times when the Sony, mostly because of the 10fps burst, can take some pictures the Pany cannot even attempt at.

And it is also almost 50€ cheaper, at least in my country...


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 Post subject: Correction
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:58 am 
Correction: only about 15 € cheaper at the moment. (Still I would choose the HX5V even if there were no price difference.)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:14 pm 
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@MikesMultiMedia

Quote:
I did notice those "transporter" beam streaks that occur with the lights hit the lens causing the effect. I've noticed this a multiple occasions in the couple of clips around the house. Seems pretty prevalent. Wondering about how to "fix" this - may have to be a user/video taking technique adaptation - in short, avoid the lights and angles which cause the issue, if possible.

I loved my ZS3 but had the same issue with those streaks you mentioned also for the ZS7. No matter what i tried i just couldn't avoid them, passing cars caused the reflection and not just filming towards the sun / bright light.

I made this combo test clip to illustrate the difference with the same scene (not my own footage): http://vimeo.com/10146102

Look also at my own clip with the ZS3 this clip at 1:17 - 1:30 and 1:53 http://vimeo.com/9158665

Here is a sample I found of the lens flare I would expect from a camera - in this case its a HX5 - (from 0:28 sec onward):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpGPczHjVbc


Gordon does great reviews and I purchased my ZS3 partly because of his reviews / recommendation.

I did return one ZS3 because I though the zoom noise was distracting, when I tried it in a quite room.
The replacement unit is the same though and it turned out not to be much of an issue in real use outdoors. The zoom noise is hardly audible, especially with wind etc. and one doesn't zoom that much in and out during video anyhow.

The " "transporter" beam streaks" however is another issue. I couldn't avoid it on many of my videos with normal use filming.
Therefore I returned the camera and now looking for a replacement such as the Sony HX5 or Canon SX210IS.
The ZS7 unfortunately seems to have the same streak issue from what I could see so far at Gordons sample movies on here and elsewhere.

Thanks for all the work being out into the reviews.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:46 pm 
hey guys,

This is my first post on these forums and I have to say im glad to be here. Im very impressed by the time that people spend to give there personal feedback on different equipment, tips and trouble shooting problems etc.

Gordons reviews are fantastic, I bought a Lumix TZ3 after viewing gordons review a few years ago.

This is what brings me back, Ive decided its time to upgrade from the tz3 and the natural progression seems to be the tz10. However since reading through the reviews of owners it seems that battery life seems a bit poor. This has thrown a fairly large spanner in the works for me as I dont really want to have to go and spend £80 pounds on a couple of spare batteries! on top of a £300 camera!

This has led me to the Fz38, It seems to have a lot better battery life than the tz10(largely due to lack of gps i suspect, which i have no interest in) It also has a larger zooom range although not quite as wide @27mm compared to 25mm of the tz10.

The screen seems to be a lower resolution @230,000 but i beleive the tz3 has the same resolution screen which I was perfectly happy with.

So the big question is do I avoid the tz10 and go for the fz38 or should I start considering another alternative (fuji f80exr, sony hx5?) HD video is a major reason for upgrade so must include this.

My only concern with the fz38 is its size. Im getting married in Vegas in may then im off on a 4 week roadtrip around california, driving the coast road and visiting the national parks, yosemite,death valley,sequoia and grand canyon. I just dont know if the size will bother me, has anyone taken the leap from a compact to the superzoom? how did you get on?


Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


many thanks


Stewart


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:14 pm 
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Hi Stewart, welcome on-board... the FZ35 / FZ8 has better battery life simply because it has a much bigger battery! It's not a big camera - still smaller than a DSLR - but is obviously bigger than the TZ series. It won't fit in a trouser pocket for example! You really need to pick one up in a shop though to see if it's going to be too big for you personally.

Also check out my review of it, and the Canon SX20 IS.

Feel free to start a new TZ10 vs FZ38 thread in this section, but we'll keep this thread for the TZ10 for neatness - cheers!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:16 pm 
Many thanks gordon, ill start a new thread. :wink:


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 Post subject: Sorry
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:44 pm 
Oops, I have just realized that my Mar-26-10:37 post (and correction next) was probably better at the Sony-HX5V thread than here.
I had no bad intention; indeed it is also a great camera, it being a matter of taste what set of features you prefer with respect to the Sony.
Still, if the moderator(s) want to move my post to the other thread, it's ok with me.


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