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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 12:29 pm 
Hi,


After much research, and assuming good IQ from E-520 (likely), I'm considering buying this combo. However, I'm concerned with the flash-shadowing at wide anlge (caused due to the size of this lens and the relatively not-as-tall E-520 flash). I've heard this becomes an increasing problem whenever going wider than 25mm on the lens (worst at 12mm) :idea: :|

Does anyone have this combo? how bad is this shadowing? does it mean no in-door family shots with flash? are there reference images of this? (shooting a blank wall with flash at various focal lengths below 25mm)?


Just a bit worried I'll have to redo my research, and forget this combo :roll:


Thanks
- Cheezbrgr


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 1:36 pm 
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It can be a problem, but then it is usually recomended to get a flash gun for your SLR. It eliminates all the associated problems with a pop up flash.

Unfortunately, not everyone can afford to add an accessory like this (like my original camera which never got a flash due to my slim wallet at the time.)

But then, with the 14-42mm lens, at wide angle, you can still get lens shadowing (even with the lens hood removed) with the pop up flash.... Hence why I had to get my flash.... But if its a serious problem, I recomend a flash gun

Leo

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1) Olympus OM1 [Zuiko Auto-S 50mm f/1.8]
2) Pentax MZ-60 [Sigma 28-90 & 100-300]
3) Canon 7D [EF-S 15-85 & 70-200mm f/4 IS & 50mm f1.4]
4) Leica M [50mm Summicron Pre-aspherical - Silver]

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 2:05 pm 
Hey Leo,


Thanks for answering.

Unfortunatly for me taking a flash gun would be too big of a "camera constelation" (body + lens + external flash) to walk around with, weight, and grabbing unwanted attention in crouds (I'm not a pro...). Money is less of an issue.

I'd also feel let-down if I'd have to carry the kit lens along and change lenses all the time, especially when they cover the same range with less IQ...

Regarding the lens hood, if the 12-60mm has no hood, the shadowing still occurs below 25mm right? ... guess there's no escape from it :(

Thanks again for answering, seems like its back to the drawing board for me :(


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 7:08 pm 
yea, its definately a problem, even without the lens hood.

but honestly you have no other options. the 14-54 is just as large and those two lenses are really your only choices when it comes to stepping up from the kit lenses.

you dont need to get a professional flash gun, you can get something small and like the FL-20 and not carry around much. but at the end of the day... you will want a better flash



heres my 2cents owning both the 510 and the 12-60: its still worth it, no doubt. your concerns that you will not be able to use the flash below 25mm is legit, but your concern about using an external flash are not.

"Unfortunatly for me taking a flash gun would be too big of a "camera constelation" (body + lens + external flash) to walk around with, weight, and grabbing unwanted attention in crouds (I'm not a pro...). "

in the situation you are describing, it seems unlikely that you would need to use both a flash and a wide angle shot. i mean it seems like you would be walking around during the day. if you need the flash and are out in public, then its probably night time and walking around with an external flash wont grab anybodies attention. and how much will you be walking around that you're too lazy to carry the extra flash gun?


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 9:14 pm 
Hey Atomic,


Thank you for your post, I really appreciate it. :)

I'll definitely have a look at the FL-20 now that you mention it (and I didn't think of). I don't know if it'll be my decision, but I will definitely consider it :) (heading over to Olympus's site right now...)

Aside from the flash issue - I'm sure your 510 and 12-60mm are providing some incredibly detailed shots! :)


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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 12:08 am 
Cheezbrgr wrote:
Aside from the flash issue - I'm sure your 510 and 12-60mm are providing some incredibly detailed shots! :)


see for yourself
http://www.cameralabs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5310
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2222/247 ... 9795_b.jpg

as far as the FL-20, i only recommended it because it was small and light, but i think at the end of the day, you will want more features like the FL-36, which is only a bit larger and weighs under 10oz [270grams]
its only marginally more expensive than the FL-20 too. if the 20 was maybe $50USD, then it would be a worthy investment, but at 115USD its way over priced for something that cant even do bounce flash. you might as well get a real flash for the extra $50


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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 6:56 pm 
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Location: Netherlands
How bad is this shadowing actually?
25 mm is still OK, but 20 mm or 18?

Hans

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 12:42 am 
ill have to run some tests and ill get back to you


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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:07 am 
i took some test shots, and it really depends on how close you are to the subject. if you're really close, [macro] then the flash will cast a shadow even at 60mm, but at a medium distance, i think 24mm was the minimum for no shadowing


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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:18 am 
Thanks for testing. Its a shame they didn't engineer the :idea: a little higher (or same height at body, but extend more when opened). I wonder if they intended this wonderful lens for E3 buyers only, which would sound at first a marketing move but then as a hindrance to E5x0 or E4x0 new buyers. :|

I don't think an external flash would fit me. I wouldn't want to keep it installed permanently on the body (would be cumbersome and bump into anything it can), if its in the bag then I'd think twice before taking a shot not-in-daylight, have to also remember if I did or didn't charge its batteries, more attention grabbing than body flash, and so on.
These are not big issues by themselves one-by-one, but for me they add up. I think its over my fuss-limit (I also do trekking and having an external flash on means the camera just got x2 the height to carry and bump around).


Only lens to compete with 12-60 is Nikon's 16-85 VR in optical quality...


(Canon's 18-55 IS kit's not as good not as tele, 17-55 f2.8 IS has little zoom, 17-85 IS has zoom but not as sharp and bad vignetting, 24-70L has no IS no wide on crops and weighs a ton, 17-40L is f4.0 at max with no zoom ....... Sony's 24-70 f2.8 has no wide on crops, Zeiss 16-80 got CA's and vignetting wasn't overly exsited by reviewers .......... amazing that nothing like the E3's 12-60 or 16-85 VR can be found :!: ....... :arrow: wait for D90 then?)


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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:21 am 
Cheezbrgr wrote:
Thanks for testing. Its a shame they didn't engineer the :idea: a little higher (or same height at body, but extend more when opened). I wonder if they intended this wonderful lens for E3 buyers only, which would sound at first a marketing move but then as a hindrance to E5x0 or E4x0 new buyers. :|

I don't think an external flash would fit me. I wouldn't want to keep it installed permanently on the body (would be cumbersome and bump into anything it can), if its in the bag then I'd think twice before taking a shot not-in-daylight, have to also remember if I did or didn't charge its batteries, more attention grabbing than body flash, and so on.
These are not big issues by themselves one-by-one, but for me they add up. I think its over my fuss-limit (I also do trekking and having an external flash on means the camera just got x2 the height to carry and bump around).


Only lens to compete with 12-60 is Nikon's 16-85 VR in optical quality...


(Canon's 18-55 IS kit's not as good not as tele, 17-55 f2.8 IS has little zoom, 17-85 IS has zoom but not as sharp and bad vignetting, 24-70L has no IS no wide on crops and weighs a ton, 17-40L is f4.0 at max with no zoom ....... Sony's 24-70 f2.8 has no wide on crops, Zeiss 16-80 got CA's and vignetting wasn't overly exsited by reviewers .......... amazing that nothing like the E3's 12-60 or 16-85 VR can be found :!: ....... :arrow: wait for D90 then?)


Im telling you friend, that you wont regret stepping up, if not for the 12-60, then the 14-54...
even if you lose the ability to shoot at night [which is SILLY because for those few times you would really need a flash, theres no excuse you cant take it with you, if only for just those situations] its still absolutely worth it.


and I do not think the lens was designed only for the E3, its just that they couldn't make it smaller.
though the height of the flash is a bit of an annoyance because I know for a fact that the flash popped up higher on the E500. Theres a few thing on the 500 that I miss on the 510.


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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 11:06 pm 
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Hi Cheezbrgr, if it makes you feel any better, almost any lens that's bigger than the standard kit zooms will block some light from the popup flash of most DSLRs. It's a fact of life I'm afraid.

If you want to use the popup flash without casting any shadows, then you'll be limiting yourself to smaller lenses on any DSLR. The only way around it is, as the others have said, to use a flashgun - or stick with smaller lenses.


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