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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:29 pm 
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Thanks Thomas.

So presumably, as long as you're using quality/faster lenses, moire shouldn't be a problem anyway, or would it also depend on available light .... or would the 36MP alone, negate the other factors?

I guess what i'm trying to say is, if someone bought a camera without the AA filter, would there be occasions where it'd be missed & moire would occur?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:30 pm 
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"as long as you're using quality/faster lenses, moire shouldn't be a problem"
Unfortunately it's the other way around! The function of an AA-filter is to make images less sharp and thus avoid moire. So if you remove the AA-filter moire is unlikely to occur when the lenses are not too sharp. But when the lens is very sharp and a contrasty regular ultra-fine pattern is in the plane of sharpest focus moire can occur. For example if you shoot Siemens-stars to test sharpness of lenses (like I do) strange pattern are to be expected at the center of the star.
Tactics to avoid moire are:
- make sure the pattern is (very) slightly out-of-focus
- open the lens to max aperture (that is a sure-fire recipe to reduce resolution)
Unfortunately there is no cure in post-processing to remove moires with little impact.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:50 pm 
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Ahh, gotcha. I presumed it worked the other way round.

Thanks again Thomas.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:19 pm 
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And the D4 is now rumored to be available end of January (2012 that is :wink: )
Here are the rumored specs (source NikonRumors, quoted verbatim):
16.2 MP
11 fps
100-12,800 native ISO range, expandable to 50 and 204,800 (corrected version!)
CF + XQD memory card slots! That's right, the Nikon D4 will have the new Compact Flash XQD memory card slot.
Compatible with the new Nikon WT-5 wireless transmitter
Integrated Ethernet in the camera
Face detection/recognition function that will be working in the viewfinder (maybe some type of a hybrid viewfinder? Nikon had several related patents)
Improved video, I have no other details on that but my guess is 1080p/30/25/24 and 720p/60/30/25/24 similar to the Nikon D800
Uncompressed video out through the HDMI port
Ability to assign the two buttons on the front of the camera to smooth aperture control during video recording
Improved 51 AF points
AF detection range will go down to EV-2.0 (the D3s went to EV -1)
Autofocus system: 9 cross-type sensors that are operational up to f/8


Those specs are rated 90% by NR (meaning "This is it" with only minor error-margin, the D800 specs were rated 99% btw.). And then there was the additional information about the body being "similar to the D3s without any major design changes"

Now that seems that Nikon is reducing their FX-portfolio to just 2 bodies:
- D4 = fast, integrated vertical grip, insane ISO
- D800 = slow, smaller body, insane MP

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Last edited by Thomas on Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: d800 pixel binning?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:15 pm 
If there is a '2x binning' mode where the D800 can operate in 18 MP range, that would double light gathering, bringing it into the range of the Nikon D4/Canon 1Dx. So first, is that feasible, or is there a technical reason why images thus binned might look terrible? Second, if feasible, how do they bin? Side-by-side feels wrong - then pixels would be rectangular. Is there a 'diagonal' binning mode where top left is binned with its nearest diagonal, checkerboard style? If all of the above is feasible and likely, and it is true that bigger pixels (like, double area) mean shooting in half the light is possible (is that correct?), then I would be happy with a D800 that can kind-of mimic the light gathering capacity of a D4 (aside from maybe that the D4 sensor might be better), and still have 36MP if I want/need it. Is any of this thinking flawed?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:47 pm 
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Hello msm, and welcome to the friendly Camera Labs forum!
To enjoy your stay here please have a look at the house-rules!
----
As to your post: Most of your thinking is ok. But pixel-binning can easily (and better) be done in post - no need to do it on the sensor and fight "non-square double-pixels". In post-processing binning is achieved by averaging the light-value of one pixel with the neighboring ones by a specific algorithm. You can determine the "radius" of this averaging by simply giving each adjacent pixel a certain weight. You will reduce resolution by this but also average-out (and thus reduce) noise.
So yes: You can expect to achieve a noise reduction of almost one stop by reducing resolution from 36MP to 18MP. And if everything else is equal*, the D800 could almost match the signal to noise ratio of the D4 - but never the speed!
----
*mind you: nobody knows yet if "everything else is equal" between the D800 and D4 sensors and processing.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:44 pm 
Thanks so much for your warm welcome! I am glad I (finally) found a friendly forum. Looks like many people have thought about binning, and I thank you for taking your time to help explain it to me. Too bad there is not a good 18MP mode on the D800 that would shoot faster and operate at low light.
sincerely -
msm


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:35 am 
What I'm still interested to find out is if cameras like the D800 will produce similar quality photos at 6400 ISO as the 1D-X at 51,200 ISO or the D4 at it's rumored 102,000 ISO under the same low light conditions.

What will Gordon's testing reveal? Hmmm... Will it come down to high useable ISO as it has been reported in the past with the D3s? Or will we look at low light photography under a new light...that it's really about about high MP count.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:58 am 
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Hi folks,

NR has posted some tight crops from some D800 high ISO samples. If the patterning on the ISSO500 sample is actually supposed to be there then presumably its disappearance by ISO1400 is down to image softening? Higher ISOs (up to 6400) are certainly usable but I'm not sure the target audience for the D800 will be using that often, if at all.

Bob.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:08 am 
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"a good 18MP mode on the D800"? I wouldn't exclude it as the jpg processing is not yet revealed. Even my trusty but old D300 allows for 6MP and 3 MP jpegs. So a 18MP and a 9MP jpeg mode from the full sensor area should be included on the D800. And certainly reduce noise considerably.
Plus there is the DX-crop mode at 16MP allowing for faster shooting. But the latter mode will do nothing to noise. Just expect performance like with the D7000 in that mode.
---
And the high-ISO examples at NR don't really reveal too much as there is (almost) no structure in the 100% crops. Plus the patterning in the ISO 500 shot might be some banding or processing glitch from a preproduction model.

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Last edited by Thomas on Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:14 am 
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Looks like textured wrapping paper to me. So the ISO500 shot is showing the subject detail, that is lost at higher ISO.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:02 am 
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Do I sense a little Nikon-bashing here, you Canonites :twisted:
Don't use these images against us Nikonians :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:31 am 
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Hey Thomas, you know me better than that. I might feel some sympathy but I'd never actually bash a Nikonian. :P

Joking aside, I've no problem with those high ISO samples given the great pixel count. If low high ISO noise is the priority then it looks very likely that the D4 will cover that base. It'll be interesting to see if Canon produce a high MP studio camera to complement the 1D X or whether they'll concede that ecology to Nikon. I've argued over in the Canon section that 18MP is enough for any girl (or bloke) for day to day shooting away from the studio but maybe the D800 will prove me wrong. 8)

Bob.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:59 am 
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Yeah, at first 36MP seems insane. But if you think of it as being simply the D7000 pixels spread over the sensor-area of FF/FX it suddenly does not seem outlandish.
It might even be considered conservative as 24MP in APS-C format seem to be the new standard which would then translate into 54-60MP on FF/FX :shock:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:33 pm 
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I corrected the ISO range of the D4 in my above post. NR said standard ISO of D4 is going "only" to 12,800, but extendable to 204,800 (=Hi4).
That sounds more realistic to me and is pretty much in line what the D800 specs show. So on a per-pixel basis you can expect the D4 to perform a good one stop better than the D800. But with pixel-binning you should be able to get similar lo-ISO performance from the D800.
~~~just my personal prediction~~~

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