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 Post subject: ILC doesn't work for me
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:06 am 
The abbreviation ILC, for "interchangeable lens compact", isn't the best choice in my opinion. I don't understand why we can't just call them what most people have been calling them all along: large-sensor compacts, or "LSC".

Are there any SMALL-sensor compacts that have interchangeable lenses? Perhaps there are, but I haven't heard of them. What distinguishes this new breed of compacts is that they have large sensors. Most of them have interchangeable lenses, but some of them (like the Sigma cameras) don't. So I think that we should standardize on Large-Sensor Compact, or LSC.

--------

Oh, I just noticed that Camera Labs is using ILC to mean Interchangeable Lens Camera, not Compact. Such a category would include DSLR's, and they have their own category, so I still say we should call these new cameras Large-Sensor Compacts.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:29 am 
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Caleb, what about the Pentax Q system? That has a small sensor.

I agree though, I'm yet to find an acornym for these cameras which I like.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:38 am 
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Gordon beat me to the Pentax Q. Also the rumoured Nikon mirrorless system will have a smaller sensor than m4/3.

I think it is Panasonic who use "compact system camera".

Thinking more, what defines "compact" anyway? I know I've owned filmed compacts, and they're as big as the smaller digital SLRs. How compact is compact?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:39 am 
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How about Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera (MILC) :) ?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:21 am 
If I read about the Pentax Q system, it didn't stick in my mind. Frankly, Pentax may be the only one to make such a camera. If you are enough of an enthusiast to want interchangeable lenses, then you are enough of an enthusiast to want a large sensor to get the best image quality. I don't think the concept of Pentax's camera will catch on with many people.

If Nikon is coming out with a camera that has a sensor smaller than 4/3rds, I'll bet it is still larger than the sensors you find in a typical compact.

Regarding the sizes of these cameras, there are a couple other review sites that routinely take photos of these new cameras lined up next to DSLRs, and the new large-sensor cameras always seem to be smaller. If there are any DSLRs that are that small, I think they are the exception. As for film, comparing film to digital is comparing apples to oranges.

As for "compact system camera", I think the word "system" is superfluous as it has no real meaning, and we should avoid meaningless terms. "Compact system camera" could also encompass all small-sensor compacts.

MILC sounds better to me than ILC.


Last edited by Caleb Murdock on Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:48 am 
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Kenko also announced a small sensor mirrorless. Yes, the Nikon isn't that small compared to compacts, but it isn't that big either. What people fail to get so far is that big sensor tends towards bigger lenses for a similar FoV. The biggest drawback of m4/3 to me so far is that the lenses are not that much smaller than DSLR outside of the small advantage it gains on wide angles due to the mount distance.

The description compact system camera does have meaning, in that system is used here to differentiate from any old random compact camera. While you could argue all cameras are part of a system, the meaning is clear here.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:52 am 
For me the meaning of "system" isn't clear at all.

I agree with you about lenses. I haven't bought my first large-sensor compact yet. I'm hoping that the NEX-7 will get good reviews. If it does, I'll be getting it with a pancake lens. I almost never use the zoom on my small-sensor compact, so I don't think I'll need one on my large-sensor compact either.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:56 pm 
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MILC? Well it certainly describes them correctly, but then so did EVIL.

I'm still not 100% keen on either though. The manufacturers need to get together and define an industry-wide term!

The most common terms I'm hearing from the manufacturers are CSC and ILC at the moment.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:37 pm 
I'm thinking that MILC doesn't really work either. "Mirrorless" is a negative (the absence of a mirror), and somehow it doesn't work to use M to stand for the lack of a mirror when M should logically denote the presence of a mirror.

I stand by LSC. Large-Sensor Compact. To me it's a no-brainer.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:07 pm 
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LSC is even worse to me. How compact is compact? And it doesn't suggest removable lens, so would include the likes of the Sigma DP series and Fuji X100. I think the mirrorless+interchangable lens part are more important than sensor size in trying to classify these.

How about CILC? Compact ILC. Pronounce the C as soft, so it'll be like Silk.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:44 am 
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For me the term "Compact System Camera" is accurate and also sounds almost lyrical. I'm not sure whether the acronym CSC will become widespread though. :?

If I were to invent an acronym which sounds better and is easier off the tongue I'd go for DSC (Digital System Camera). It eschews the word "compact" but in 50 years time who's going to notice?

Update: On second thoughts in a few years our attachment to the word "digital" will be thought quaint. There's no need to describe these cameras in terms which differentiate them from SLRs or DSLRs so how about
    System Cameras (SCs)
That differentiates them from compacts and superzooms and, within a few years when flappy mirrors, as opposed to pellicles, have bitten the dust the term "system camera" says all that needs to be said. To be fair, DSLRs are also "system cameras" but the term isn't commonly used for DSLR marketing purposes so far as I'm aware. Is it possible that such a term could become associated in the public's eye with the new breed of cameras?

Bob.

P.S. For me the word "system" means a lot. With compacts and superzooms you tend to get what it says on the tin and any accessories are usually camera specific and have to be discarded when you upgrade the camera even if you stick with the same manufacturer. With system cameras you at least get a strong likelihood that lenses etc. can be used on your next body so long as it belongs to the same system.

P.P.S. Did you notice how natural the use of "system camera" was in the paragraph above? :lol: 8)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:01 am 
For me the word "system" has very little meaning. It's a euphemism that has whatever meaning we assign to it, but has no significant meaning of its own. All cameras include systems of some sort. In your mind, "system" denotes components that can be used on other cameras, but in my mind it denotes no such thing.

As an example, if you mean that four-thirds is a "system", I can understand that. But what we're looking for here is a phrase and acronym that cover all the "systems" (APS-C as well as four-thirds) that have large sensors and interchangeable lenses.

How about RLC for Removable Lens Compact. "Removable" is a little more elegant than "interchangeable". The problem with that, though, is that the Sigma cameras should be included in this category. I'll say it again: it's the large sensor in a small body that really distinguishes this class of cameras.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:34 am 
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Caleb Murdock wrote:
For me the word "system" has very little meaning. It's a euphemism that has whatever meaning we assign to it, but has no significant meaning of its own...

I could get all philosophical and say that I could replace the word "system" in the quote above with any word in any language and it would be equally valid but I won't! ;) Did you ever see the Blackadder episode "Ink and Incapability"? If not check out the YouTube excerpt C is for contrafibularity. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I suspect that we get too hung up about these things - who amongst us really understands instinctively why the word "reflex" was chosen when the acronym SLR was invented? The meaning is obvious when one thinks about it but do many actually do that? I'd guess that whatever we think or suggest here the descriptive phrase and/or acronym chosen will be the one that the marketers find shifts most boxes even if accuracy is sacrificed in the process. Yep, I'm an old cynic. :twisted:

Bob.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:26 pm 
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Hi Bob, sadly we can't use DSC because the manufacturers already use this to denote Digital Still Camera, referring to compacts with small sensors. You'll note all Sony Cyber-shots are DSCs...

PS - respect to anyone who can bring Blackadder into such a discussion!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:39 pm 
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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OM-D E-M5, H-PS14042E, Gitzo GT1541T, Arca-Swiss Z1 DP ball-head.
Astrophotography: TEC 140 'scope, FLI ML16803 camera, ASA DDM60 Pro mount.


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