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 Post subject: DSLR Cropped sensor
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:59 pm 
The DLSR cropped sensor whats the long term future?
When it gets cheaper to manufacture a camera with a FF sensor will the cropped sensor bite the dust like vinyl records when the CDs hit the shelves.
Could we be left with cropped DSLRs and lenes to suit that nobody will want when the time comes to up grade to FF?.
Will we be left with a very expensive door stop?. :shock:
I am thinking about new Canon 40D to replace my 30D but should i be thinking more along the lines of maybe a Canon 5D and invest in EF lenes.
Hopefully the two formats will coexist for years to come as many photographers have put hard earner cash into there cropped sensor kit.
What does everybody think? i just thougt it might make a good debate for the forum


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:03 pm 
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VIQ = Very important question!
As the cost of manufaturing a FF/FX sensor is about 4 times higher than manufacturing a APS-C/DX-sensor believe me: There will be a larger market for cameras with DX-sensor than for cameras with FX-sensor.
So a new Canon 40D will not be relegated to a doorstopper because wolrd+dog is going for FX-bodies :roll:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:43 pm 
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I understand it is more expensive, pretty logical, the sensor is bigger...but not 4 times bigger!

It is only a tiny big bigger in the grand sceme of things, so what makes a Full Frame sensor cost so much more to make?

If anyone her understands the construction process of a CMOS or CCD sensor (or other type of sensor used in DSLR cameras) could you please explain why FF sensors are so much more expensive in comparison to APS-C etc.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:12 am 
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Have a look at this article. Of course there is not only the increased cost of manufacture but, in the grand scheme of things, because FF DSLRs don't sell in big numbers they don't benefit to the same degree from economies of scale compared to cropped sensor cameras. Of course, if everyone bought FF DSLRs then they would be cheaper but that isn't where we are, nor where the market started from.

Bob.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:23 am 
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I can tell you this: the reason APS-C sensors are the size they are is nothing to do with photography. It's simply because that's the maximum size the standard semi-conductor machines can stamp out!

Anything bigger needs specialised machines and of course the larger surface area means a poorer yield. That's why bigger sensors cost so much.

As to whether all DSLRs will be full frame in the future, who knows? There's an enormous investment in APS-C optics, so I suspect there will always be APS-C models, but really long term, they may only be budget models with this sized sensor. I think we're a while away from that though...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:35 am 
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Ah right so the machines can only make up to APS-C i get it now :P That makes sense...what doesn't though is why did the tubes who built the machines not think...well its pretty logical everything might shift to FF sensors, so why not make them take up to FF...its like an A4 and an A3...kind of.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:59 am 
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Hi Daniel, sorry to clarify, the machines weren't made to produce camera sensors. They were made to produce general semi conductors and just ended up being used to make sensors too!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:44 pm 
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so APS-C is just a semi-conductor size or the max size the standard machine could make and therefore was simply named APS-C (A tad out my depth with this stuff, stopped reading as much of that stuff since I started 6th year, no time because of school work!)

Sounds logical as we normally want smaller semiconductors for most things with high quality Imaging Sensors being one of the expetions.

I really should just still to fixing network problems and fried computers :roll:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:13 pm 
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You have to take geometry and yields into account!
If you have a 70% yield with an APS-C sensor, that means that 30% of the sensors have a non-recoverable defect. Now with a FF/FX-sensor you need 2.5 adjacent areas of the wafer to have zero non-recoverable defects. Chances now are only at around 40% to have a good FF/FX-chip.
So to add up the sums:
Let's assume a normal wafer has 1000 APS-C sensors on it, 70% of which are ok: that's 700 ok APS-C sensors at the end of the day.
Due to the larger size there can only fit 400 FX-sensors on the wafer of which only 40% are good: that's 160 ok FF/FX-sensors at the end of the day.
That's only 1/4 of the output!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:46 pm 
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Addendum: Thom Hogan can be quoted saying: "the smaller size provides an 8x or higher improvement on cost for the most expensive part in the camera" (source)
Same here: "Sensor cost increases rapidly with size, scaling with at least the third power of sensor area"

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