Camera Labs

I have to decide upon a gear best suited for my work as a documentary film maker and photographer. To start with, I have to do architectural documentations, yet, it will be tipping more towards heritage documentation that is both tangible and intangible. Hence, there will be a healthy inclusion of action photography and videos, also as I might want to use scenes of/while driving and riding, scenes of live performances etc. as an integral part of the documentaries. I would be incorporating time-lapse, stop motion, hdr, night-captures(important) etc. on a regular basis. Its a mixed bag of(video/still, day/night, indoor/out-door, good-weather/bad-weather) things really, since my work is not confined to just one field. So there I'll be hoping to put together a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-quite-a-few performance oriented confluence of both the camera bodies and lenses.
Consider me to be a guy sent out to uncharted lands where you never know what awaits a basic to intermediate yet stand-alone documentation
As of today, I have absolutely nothing in terms of DSLR bodies or lenses, or any other support. I have to put it all together from scratch. We are primarily two people myself and my partner who would be doing all this data collection. We have decided to go with 1 flagship DSLR body, 2 semi-pro bodies and maybe one mid-range DSLR body along with lenses (from super-wide angled to mid-range zoom, from prime lenses to tilt-shift lenses and so on), filters, remotes, tripods, dollies, grips, glide/steady-cams, battery packs, microphones, flash guns, data cards, camera bags and many more accessories.
Money would not be too much of a nag so long we have a wholesome kit.(and no, i am not a rich guy, these are all just tools that are going to be provided for )
We are expecting to start on acquiring the gear/kit from mid april, but we can surely wait on till June end on a few things such as the flagship model(to have them assessed by professionals for their inputs on the same).
I am not confining myself with brand preferences, as of yet, witnessing all the fireworks of nikon-canon war over several forums surly leaves me saturated sometimes and amused mostly. I somehow have a soft spot for canon gear though, purely because of what i see and like, yet since i don't have much experience with high-end models of any of these or other brands, i can hardly vouch for any in terms of technical brilliance, artistic freedom, user interface, durability, likability and so on.
At this time I'd want my queries to be addressed wrt DSLR and lens systems(with as much I can get to know about the other accessories) as all these new DSLRs have become more and more catering and conscious to both videos and stills.

I apologize for this long and very abstract query, yet, your input will greatly help me refine my choices of these very capable machines irrespective of the logo they bear.

Many Thanks in advance

Firstly, I would strongly recommend you wait until after NAB in case Canon officially announces their 4k DSLR.

Secondly, since you seem to have the budget, I would recommend you take a look at Panasonic's AF100. There are just so many hassles when shooting video on a DSLR that you don't have to deal with when using an actual video camera.

Thirdly, for ENG/Docu on a hybrid stills/video camera, I'd recommend Panasonic's GH2 because of the unlimited take length (of U.S. models) and (quick and quiet) AF while shooting video (with selected lenses). Full disclosure, I own a GH2. And as a bonus, if you also go with the AF100, you can use the same lenses.

Personally, I'd say:

Canon 4k DSLR or 5D Mark II or III
Canon T3i/60D/7D depending on budget and whether you'd rather have higher fps for stills or a vari-angle LCD for video.
Panasonic AF100
Panasonic GH2

Also note that you can get a lens adapter to mount EF lenses on the AF100 and GH2. There's even one from Birger that enables electronic control--AF, aperture, IS--although it'll probably drain the battery on the GH2 pretty fast.

HTH - Mark

Honestly I think so far from the reviews and feedback I have seen, the Nikon D800 seems to be a more capable camera than the Canon 5D Mark III.
It features pretty much everything the Canon does and more at a cheaper price.
Another big question which then pops up is ISO noise, given that you need something very versatile, the D800 has more noise, but the noise is prettier. The 5D still suffers from banding higher up. That being said the 36Mp of the D800 gives you silly amounts of details.

Video with DSLR's is hard, and it's something which takes time to learn to be better at. If this is something that you need to do a lot of then a slim shoulder mount would be necessary. Hence what Maestro is saying, getting a video camera at your side.
I would however strongly suggest that you watch a couple of Youtube videos on this matter, there is a lot of experience to be gathered from users.

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Canon 5D MkII -|- Sigma 24mm f/1.8 | Carl Zeiss 35mm f/2.0 | Canon 50mm f/1.4 | Canon 100mm f/2.8 Macro | Lensbaby Composer
Canon A-1 -|- Canon 28mm f/2 | Canon 35mm f/2.8 | Canon 50mm f/3.5 Macro

I find it amusing that you are asking us, you should be telling us what you need for documentary work?

Anyway, pick a real video camera for video and a DSLR and some quality lenses, what flavour they are is a minor concern, but if you don`t know by know that makes me question the whole question you are asking. Just look up the lenses you expect to be using, the body is second to lenses anyway and then big which manufacturer supports it best. Or am I missing something here?????

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Canon Powershot S95, Canon 7D, 15-85, Canon 85 1.8 USM, Sigma 30 1.4, 50mm 1.8, Canon 100 2.8L IS Macro, Canon 70-300L IS USM+Kenko 1.4 Pro 300DGX, Canon 430EX II and RS 4 Classic

Thanks Mark for your inputs, it just brings to fore what i have been contemplating(including an actual video camera), yet not very strongly. But as you point out, it seems the vid-cam is something that i cant ignore for long, as yes, at the end of the day, i also don't want to be struggling too much with a gear which is designed for still but can 'also' take videos. Although, the videos from these DSLRs that i have seen on various forums are quite something that would suffice my needs, but i also understand that they all represent finished neat presentations, not the process or limitations/compromises on these DSLRs wrt video.
In this scenario I would want to have a v-cam of the same brand as the rest of the gear(DSLR+Lens) compatibility-wise, and thus the choice of brand narrows down to canon, as you have also indicated. Panasonic combo of AF100 + GH2 would be something worth considering, if i don't quite get the same advantage within canon.
The canon 4k DSLR that you pointed out seems to be of significance here, if it is widely contemplated to be more generous towards the video capture capabilities, it surely might be worth the wait then.
I am very strongly considering 1DX if i go with canon. It would be great to have your take on that, and whether it changes any equations(in terms of video).

Thanks again Mark, for your kind inputs, it definitely gives me more to thinks about!
My Best Regards

Thanks Lorride, for responding to my query. You seem to have worked with a 7D, what a wonderful machine(although i haven't ever used one, but have heard and seen quite a bit).
D800, as you say, does have many advantages over 5dIII, although, if i may contemplate thus, that the two have traits that could, by and large, be addressed more as 'mutually exclusive'(even more so, in my case, as i want a gear sufficing a dear good deal of expertise in video department, although i have seen quite a lot of people quoting the D800 to be more 'advanced' in video capabilities too). I don't want to be sounding quite partial to D800, but when it comes down to video capabilities of a whole set of offerings by a single brand, the D800 occurs to me as a lone Spartan warrior, which sure can present an immense challenge, yet, it could have been way more formidable with a little more(and similar) support from other nikons. I may be completely wrong in my assumptions, and would be most happy to be corrected there.
I am going to be following your advise(and the same as suggested by Maestro) to go with a vid-cam. Although, i would have liked to go with just the DSLRs, but it is seeming more and more unlikely now, as also, there might not be a drastic change with the 'rolling shutter' of the DSLRs. I haven't completely given up hope though, as I am not so technically informed on what is to come in a few more weeks.

Thanks Again & My Best Regards

Thanks for replying Maxxjj, for you have put things in pure black-n-white, which is always refreshing I am not quite clear on what you mean by 'need' in your 1st sentence, as i have already mentioned what i need to do in my documentaries. I do understand that one camera cant suffice all the needs i have mentioned, and so i am asking for advice regarding the most suitable combination of gear wrt camera and lens, preferably keeping the context of one brand(as it might be simpler, not so unnecessarily expensive and heavy a kit)
I concur with you on the issue of the importance of lenses, and the importance of the machinery(man) that holds the viewfinder being more than that of the one housing it(camera), yet, if it were as simple as that, me and you wont have had accounts/profiles registered on forums such as this(please don't get me wrong).
Most of what you have mentioned in your reply is quite right, but trying to comply with present day formats, freedom of artistic expression owing to the technological advancement in gadgetry/tools in making an interesting documentation and with so many options available to cater to the same, one is bound to ask for insights from people who have used/assessed or simply have a better understanding and experience of the capabilities of these machines.
I understand that my queries here might not come as particularly straight to a lot of people, that is why i have extended my apologies to such occurring, in my original post

Thanks for replying & My Best Regards

Where DSLR video excels, particularly on full frame models, is that it is simply the cheapest way to get very shallow depth of field. If you need that, you need that. Their weakness is the AF is either non-existent or pretty poor. You will have to do all the work there. Great for set pieces, not great if you have to turn up somewhere random and just get on with it.

The Sony SLT models present an interesting hybrid, giving you a relatively big sensor with full time AF. The Panasonic models also provide AF at a slightly smaller sensor size again.

The minor problems is that if you want ultimate stills performance, I think the choice has to be between Canon and Nikon. That's not to say the others aren't good, but their ecosystems don't come close. But if you also want video AF, you have to go Sony or Panasonic. For the best of both worlds, I'd therefore suggest you get two systems optimised for their strengths.

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Canon DSLRs: 7D, 5D2, 1D, 600D, 450D full spectrum, 300D IR mod
Lenses: EF 35/2, 50/1.8, 85/1.8, 135/2+SF, 28-80 V, 70-300L, 100-400L, TS-E 24/3.5L, MP-E 65, EF-S 15-85 IS
3rd party: Zeiss 2/50 makro, Samyang 8mm fisheye, Sigma 150 macro, 120-300 f/2.8 OS, Celestron 1325/13
Tinies: Sony HX9V.

When I re-read what I wrote last night, its a bit too black and white, must have been tired, I guess I like to keep it simple. Sorry about that.

As has been said Canon and Nikon offer the most for photography, plenty of weather sealed bodies, f2.8 and F4 lenses and large aperture primes, but in Video Canon and Sony may offer more.
Sony could be an interesting way to go due to the whole nex system and interchangeable lenses and the Sony Nex video camera with interchangeable lenses. But maybe not mature enough to build a whole kit around.

For video work a dedicated video cam does offer some nice advantages, wouldn`t want to rely on a DSLR to capture moving action and they are not good at capturing sound. My wife studies multi media and she has been using the 7D for video work, there is plenty of discussion about sound issues when using DSLR`s. Have a google on 5D and 7D sound problems and fixes. Maybe the new 5DIII fixes this.

Have you also thought about some sturdy cases like Pelican cases and Laptops for in the field?

_________________
Canon Powershot S95, Canon 7D, 15-85, Canon 85 1.8 USM, Sigma 30 1.4, 50mm 1.8, Canon 100 2.8L IS Macro, Canon 70-300L IS USM+Kenko 1.4 Pro 300DGX, Canon 430EX II and RS 4 Classic

With the disclaimer that, being relatively new, I haven't seen much of either the 1D X or 5D Mark III, and speaking strictly with regard to their video capabilities (as requested), I have yet to see anything that would convince me that the 1D X is worth the additional cost. Personally, I think those funds could be put to better use, whether it's buying more/better lenses, or Glidecam/Stedicam rigs, or lights, or mics/mixers, or Macs and FCP licenses, or heck, you could even literally get two more 60Ds or GH2s!

My 2¢- Mark

Thanks for the reply, it is particularly helpful in addressing my need for a mid range D-SLR/SLT. I just checked the review for SLT A77, the full-time AF(besides better AE bracketing, 12fps etc.) does seem to be complimenting well with the rest gear i might put together. I'll watch some videos/stills from the A77 to see if it caters to my configuration. Thanks!



Thanks Max, as you said, the sound factor is just as important, i intend to build my kit around all these factors and so, although accessories prove to be of a great assistance, at the end of the day one doesn't want to be struggling so much with them either. So i guess it will be more practical to think in an inclusive way here. I might get the vid-cam.
As for the Pelican cases and laptops, oh yes, they are most essential, and by introducing the subject here, you have done me a great good as i'd like to get advice on these. Thanks!



Hey Mark, most of what we know about this new breed(1D X, D4, D800, 5DIII), as of this hour is actually, more of speculation(some previews and partial reviews) than real time application, results and performance stories. Only, some are better informed or shall we say more technically aware than the rest. Me being the later, i have only to gain Ofcourse, the more time we give it, the better we'll know.
As for the rest, as i have mentioned, its all on the list. I'll have to see each and every aspect of a complete setup, only since i have never worked with such a gear(though i have kept myself a bit informed), thus i am looking for advice from people such as yourself who have more info and experience than me, to try and avert any avoidable happenings, and in the process refine my choices. Thanks!


To All,

As of today, after the inputs that i have received, my choice of brand, somewhat as before remains inclined towards canon for majority of the gear. Canon, if i am not very wrong, has way more choices in their Lenses and are more known/popular amongst even pros when the inclusion of video captures becomes imperative. Moreover, they stand quite shoulder-to-shoulder with nikon and other brands of this range/segment of equipment, in terms of technical brilliance and built quality.
Having said that, I am still quite open minded and optimistic about going for another brand around which i can assemble my kit, if I get the value for money spent, creative freedom and delightful gear usage experience This is also the point where i'd request you to give me your valuable inputs on building a 'complete lens kit'.
As pointed out by both Maestro and Max, laptop and carry-cases(such as pelican) are crucial and remains the field i haven't explored much. It would be great for me to get a heads-up before i go on looking for that on www. as for the laptops, i have worked on windows OS, so any suggestions there wrt brands/models? (or is it suggested that i go for the big switch (from windows to mac )

Also, as has been suggested so far in this thread, i am thinking of adding a dedicated video camera in my kit, I'll also need some inputs on dedicated and optimized systems which if possible, could go along with the rest of my gear. I am beginning to look towards Sony, Panasonic & canon, any suggestions here would help me immensely.

Thanks again you guys, for granting interest to my queries. It is actually helping me a great deal in deciding upon this investment.
My Most Humble Regards to all of you

That largely depends on your particular needs and budget. e.g. can you afford and do you need a $45,000 CN-E30-300mm? Or would something else be better suited to you? So it would help if you could tell us more about your budget and what/how you intend to shoot.



A prolonged discussion would be more appropriate in the Computer hardware and operating systems section but a quick note: I've been editing on a Toshiba Qosmio X505-Q880 with CS5 (Premiere) for two years now. The main issue I've come across is when I need to hand a project off to someone else, a lot of whom use Final Cut on a Mac.



Personally, I think the Panasonic m4/3 system (AF100) is more robust than the Sony NEX system (FS100) and the footage looks better to my eye. But, as noted above, I'm biased toward Pany/m4/3. Of course, as also noted above, Canon's 4k DSLR could change that.

Oh, and re: cases--while Pelican cases are great for transporting gear long distances--e.g. in checked baggage on an airline--I like Lowepro's rolling cases for transporting gear short distances--e.g. from hotel to location.

Mark

My mistake, Mark
Well, I think that as far as the DSLRs are concerned i am going to build a kit around canon. Gordon has been doing some more reviews of D800 & 5DIII, i wish i could get some insight from him too in the matter ( )to help me decide, but then i guess i'll have to wait for his official report to be out. so, as of now and the way it goes, i am sticking with my earlier contemplation of going ahead with canon, thus, i would want to look for lens in canon range for the majority of em(all EF L-series).
I'll, primarily have to capture/click historical buildings like forts, palaces etc, people, landscape, events, live performances, interviews, equestrian scenes, nature and wildlife.(which i think includes almost everything, almost in terms of general lens and cam deliverance and capabilities respectively ). So i think i should have good sturdy bright glasses(the bigger the aperture, the better, so far it doesn't upset the budget mentioned later in the post) that are:
super-wide and wide angle
general purpose
70-200 (if needed, till 300mm, which i hope, is not so much of a case, yet)
tilt-shift
2 primes
any other, that i SHOULD have
if by any exception(i don't know how unlikely it is), i go on including the D800 along with the rest, i'd like to have atleast two lenses from nikkor( i haven't done any looking-up in nikkor, and as i understand they are a bit more expensive than those in canon, so maybe i'd like to assign a budget of around US$4-5,000 there) which can be either general purpose(kit) lens, wide angle or prime.




I'll do the needful, and by what you have indicated(wrt pc/mac) i think i'll have to think inclusive.



Thanks Mark, i'll look up on these. I sincerely hope that the 4k comes out as a winner for me.



thats going to be helpful. And Thanks again Mark, for all the inputs. I do hope to get more.

To All

It is interesting that Mark mentions that figure (US$45,000) as eventually, before the end of this year(say, as early as, hopefully Sept), i might end-up spending around $42,000-45,000 on the camera bodies (4to5DSLRs+1dedicated V-Cam) and lenses together. (if it helps me, to get more insights here, i'd give a tentative list for DSLRs(which V-cam is a thing i still have to decide) i think i might be more inclined to get:
1Dx
5DIII
D800
7D
60Da inclusion of astro-photography is only going to add more spice to the general demeanor of the documentaries (if i am excused for saying so ), and should also help me in my interest in the field.
This list(or any further modification in it) should also help me get some insights for the lenses.

If i could save some on the above i'll be happy to add that amount to the tentative amount(around $20-22,000) on all other accessories such as 2 laptops, 2 workstations(pc/mac), Glidecam/Stedicam rigs, filters, remotes, tripods, dollies(stage zero kit), grips, battery packs, microphones/mixers, flash guns, data cards, camera bags etc. Any suggestions there will push me ahead in the know-how of what-i'll-need, which-ones etc. as i don't have any tangible experience of using such a kit. It is going to be a long project(1.5-2 years) so whatever i choose, starting from now to a couple of months down, should leave me assorted and optimized in terms of gear usability. I'd like to start as early and try to gather as much i can get till mid June, as preliminary research on the documentary subject and some site recce will happen till then.

Many Thanks in advance

correction:
in place of 60Da, its either Sony SLT A77 or Panasonic GH2

update:
It would be great to hear some guess as to what could be the price on the canon4K dslr.
Would Panasonic m4/3 system (AF100) or the Sony NEX FS100 suffice?
I saw some bit of the Sony NEX FS700 preview. It seems worth including at the cost of dropping a couple of dslrs and adding some more budget? Is it going to be way more expensive than the price it bears wrt lenses and other operational costs (excluding the 4k firmware updates and adapter/recorder, can have the 4k option for later)? for now i'd be more than happy with high fps count at 1080p on the FS700, I was very impressed with the promotional video ( http://vimeo.com/39839187 ) although i don't know whether did they use any feature which is to be incorporated later for production models. I am completely in for it if the actual operational costs minus the lenses is not too high, more so, if by means of adapters, it can use the canon lenses. I wont mind adding a couple of lenses from Sony and Zeiss.

Is all this contemplation unnecessary? when put in a broader perspective and practical sense, should I rather look for the video camera in a lower price range?

Please throw in your inputs
Thanks

For ENG/Docu, especially in the field, I'd rather have four good cameras than two great cameras. You should be able to wrap a shoot faster and you are less likely to miss a moment. Even more so when you factor in the 1.5-2 year length of this project. i.e. I'd rather replace two good cameras (GH2, T3i) than one great camera (FS700).

And yes, posting 4k is a lot more involved than HD. Obviously, you need sixteen times more storage, and since you're pushing sixteen times the data around, sixteen times more processing power. Unless you're doing major VFX (on the level of Transformers or The Lord of the Rings), I don't think it'd be worth it.

Oh, and since you mentioned Zeiss, have you taken a look at their Compact Primes?

http://www.zeiss.com/compactprime

If I had the budget, that's what I'd use - Mark