Camera Labs

After being a longtime lurker on this forum I have finally joined.
My family and I travel a lot including some hard out of the way places that requires some lots of walking.
I love photography - especially capturing local people and their daily lives.

I have had a request from my youngest for a new camera to travel while we hike in Nepal. Something lighter weight than a traditional DSLR but with some room to grow with.
One of the girls is happy taking her Panasonic DMC-FZ35 - a travel superzoom that has been superseded a few times but still takes quite nice pics and video. Even my wife has asked about a new simple point and shoot for her as hers has stopped working after 5 years of use.
What happened to the days of a family just having one camera??!!

To complicate things further I have been doing the search again for a lighter system than my Canon DSLR. I fine the biggest bug bears for me in travel with my 50D is:
1. Weight
2. Using one body and having to frequently change lenses - I usually travel with a wide angle EFS 10-22, lower light zoom EF-S 17-55 2.8 and a do all Tamron 18-270 when I just cant be bothered changing lenses or need the reach. I love my wide angle EFS 10-22 as it has allowed me to get shots that no one else in the family has managed with their own cameras.
3. No Video on the 50D
4. 50D sensor is a bit on the noisy side compared to todays offerings.

I would also like my camera to have a good jpeg engine. While I do take raw, it is a pain in the backside after

So I have been toying with the following ideas:
1. Buying a new mirrorless system such as Sony Nex5N or 7
2. Getting my daughter a superzoom like her sister - Sony, Canon, and Panasonic all produce nice superzooms. Wife would be happy with anything small say a canon S95.

Thank god I have been working like a trooper to pay for everthing!

I have to say I really like the look of Sony's Nex-7 and 5N - the lens are a bit limiting at the moment. Love sony's panorama maker - so much easier than my photoshop attempts. However, despite shrinking the bodies, you cant get around physics and the fact that while using an APSC sensor gives great low light performance, the lens will be still the same size - hence huge compared to the body and still heavy.

I cant help but feel the mirrorless systems will take off but are still in a huge state of flux.

As you can probably tell I am in a state of confusion - that usually leads me to doing nothing!
My key criteria really is being able to capture candid shots of people in my travels, Wide angle shots of landscapes and areas where space is tight. I particularly like low light photos and would like a less noisy sensor. Yes I have noise reduction software.
Anyone have some comments, suggestions and personal experience?

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Canon 50D
Canon EF-S 17-55 2.8
Tamron 18-270 mm
Canon 10-22mm lens
Canon 50 mm 1.4
Benro Carbon Fibre Tripod C-258 + B-1 Head
Canon 10D EF 100mm 1:2.8 Macro Macro Ring Lite MR-14EX
imac 24" 2.8 Aperature II

I'd suggest getting hands on the mirrorless systems - check out the NEX in person anywhere you can to decide if it might work. I can say that the NEX is very noticeably lighter and smaller than any DSLR I've ever had, and significantly less so than my DSLR...photos don't transmit well - the lenses look relatively huge, but they're really not - and because the camera is so much smaller than a DSLR, it barely adds anything to the size and weight. Take a basic Canon 18-55 kit lens, and picture sticking a deck of cards to it - that's about what the NEX is like - the entire package is ridiculously light and free of any bulk - it's the mass, not the dimensions. A DSLR is so much wider, chunkier, fatter throughout, whereas the NEX is barely more than a grip attached to a lens.

It still might not work for some - I can say for me, it works beautifully. I bought mine as a second body to ride alongside my DSLR, and occasionally take its place when I want or need to travel light. My DSLR kit has 7 lenses, and my NEX kit is over a dozen. There are currently 7 native NEX lenses available, a little lacking on the ultrawide end...but the panorama function does work very effortlessly. And if you already know how to shoot with a DSLR, you can set up the NEX to function more like one - all the 'auto' modes, help screens, and beginner buttons can be turned off or reprogrammed, and the crucial camera controls (shutter, aperture, ISO, WB, EV, drive mode, etc) can all be programmed for direct access on the camera body - there are 6 programmable buttons, and up to 8 functions can be assigned to them.

I can say that apart from action shooting, where focus speed and tracking, and ability to pan with a moving target are necessary, the NEX is as capable as any DSLR - it's more the photographer and lenses used that make the difference. I still keep and use a DSLR, and the NEX is often tagging along as a lightweight second body, but there have been short business trips, long hikes, foul weather times, or travel light needs where the NEX has gone alone, and done a fantastic job in every possible condition. And low light, night handheld, and indoor low light photography are all very big parts of my shooting needs. I picked up my NEX 6 months ago, and have the older NEX3 with the 14MP sensor - the newer ones are even better. A gallery of my NEX shots so far - which are a mish-mash of many different photographic types:
http://www.pbase.com/zackiedawg/sony_nex3

Since it's often a second body, I don't have quite as extensive a gallery yet in just 6 months, but I've used it for landscape, scenic, architecture, wildlife, night, street, handheld, travel, etc.

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Justin Miller
Sony DSLR-A580 / Sony 18-250mm / Minolta 50mm F1.7 / Sigma 30mm F1.4 / Tamron 10-24mm / Tamron 200-500mm / Tamron 90mm F2.8 macro / Minolta 300mm F4 APO
Sony NEX5N / 18-55mm F3.5-5.6 / 55-210mm F4-6.3 / Pentax K adapter / Konica K/AR adapter / bunches o' Konica & Pentax lenses!

Galleries:
http://www.pbase.com/zackiedawg

Thanks for the great reply. I had a quick check in person today of the nex 5n. They didn't have the 18-200 lens though which I am interested in.
Still the size of the nex is great.. A little unconventional when you hang a big lens off.
The Olympus Pen 3 seemed like a great size camera with some nice lenses available. Video and stills are a step down when u read the reviews.. No experience in person though.
Getting my slr was easy. This is much harder. Guess I am much more demanding now . I look forward to hearing from any other out there.

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Canon 50D
Canon EF-S 17-55 2.8
Tamron 18-270 mm
Canon 10-22mm lens
Canon 50 mm 1.4
Benro Carbon Fibre Tripod C-258 + B-1 Head
Canon 10D EF 100mm 1:2.8 Macro Macro Ring Lite MR-14EX
imac 24" 2.8 Aperature II

Been out looking at the Nikon V1 and Pen Ep-3 .

Sales people think the Nikon is better - not sure.
Starting to think I should just lug my 50D as its all to hard. Both the Nikon and Olympus cameras and lens are sure light. But are we just going backwards to a point and shoot level of IQ?

More confused than ever.

_________________
Canon 50D
Canon EF-S 17-55 2.8
Tamron 18-270 mm
Canon 10-22mm lens
Canon 50 mm 1.4
Benro Carbon Fibre Tripod C-258 + B-1 Head
Canon 10D EF 100mm 1:2.8 Macro Macro Ring Lite MR-14EX
imac 24" 2.8 Aperature II

Now we have the Panasonic GX1 to consider.
I keep coming back the the OLY EP-3 and the fabulous sounding primes. Small enough size I could take and ultrawide zoom, general zoom and a couple of primes.

I think I may have convinced myself!

_________________
Canon 50D
Canon EF-S 17-55 2.8
Tamron 18-270 mm
Canon 10-22mm lens
Canon 50 mm 1.4
Benro Carbon Fibre Tripod C-258 + B-1 Head
Canon 10D EF 100mm 1:2.8 Macro Macro Ring Lite MR-14EX
imac 24" 2.8 Aperature II

Hi kmcgreg,

first of all: welcome to the forum -glad you have decided to join!

Having been faced with a similar challenge, I thought I'd share my own deliberation process in the hope that it may offer you something to consider as well.

I was looking for a travel camera too, not too long ago. My criteria were to lay my hands on a camera that would not compromise image quality and low-light performance, but still be a camera I am inclined to take everywhere. Day-trips and even with me every day.

It had to be compact, easy to operate, have built-in flash for fill, be rugged, not weigh too much etc.

I considered the NEX offerings, the PENs from Olympus and even the Sigma FOVEON DPs. But, I ended with a Fuji X100.

Having handled the others, I just did not find them portable enough or balanced enough with anything other than fairly wide pancake lenses. I also did not feel that the whole idea of being forced to compose with the back LCD or get a separate viewfinder that sticks out, to be what I as looking for.

Here are the some qualities about the Fuji X100 that makes it the ultimate travel camera for me:
1. Unbeatable out-of-the-box auto white-balance: it just nails it every time
2. Impressive high-ISO noise control
3. 1/2000 sec flash synch, basically making the built-in flash 4 times as strong as it would be on my Nikon DSLR which has 1/250 sec max synch speed
4. The best expose-with-flash handling out-of-the box I've seen with any camera ever
5. High-Quality F2 Fujinon lens offering. A quality 23mm prime (Equivalent to 35mm on full-frame/film).
6. The most intuitive external tactile controls ever invented for aperture, shutter speed and exposure compensation
7. The brightest viewfinder in a camera under $2000 dollars, with artificial horizon. When the scene is dark you flick a switch and it turns into an electronic viewfinder allowing you improved vision as the higher ISOs kick in
8. Literally - not figuratively - a completely silent operation of the camera. You can set it so it emits no sound at all.
9. Last, but not least, an image quality that is in fact better than my Nikon D300 - higher linear resolution at ISO400 and up.
10. Did I mention styling? Perhaps THE most classy camera design - in a camera not offered by LEICA - on the market

Today, I bring this camera with me everywhere and am extremely happy with my choice.

If you find that one or more of these qualities I have pointed out above, to be valuable to you I do recommend that you take a closer look at the Fuji X100 as well.

Good luck with your choice!

Cheers

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Nikon stuff and other stuff, but not nearly as much stuff as I really want!

Thanks Ken, for the comprehensive reply. You sound just like me. Interesting, I used to live in Vancouver but now live in Australia.
I have yet to hold or look at the Fuji X100 -not 100% sure if it would suit me but I will check it out.

I had been seriously ready to buy the Olympus E-P3.
This camera looks great with a good range of travel zooms ie 14-150 and some great primes and wide angle zooms.
Problem- went and tried it out today in a photo shop - poor help with no knowledge (no wonder people buy online!) I tried it in the shop with the 14-150 and could not get a single shot in focus with the 14-150 in auto mode.
There seemed to be a huge amount of shake - no stabilisation - i checked and IBIS seemed to be on. There was nothing like the huge difference my lenses make that have OIS on my DSLR. Not much chop if you cant get a shot in focus. What have others found?

_________________
Canon 50D
Canon EF-S 17-55 2.8
Tamron 18-270 mm
Canon 10-22mm lens
Canon 50 mm 1.4
Benro Carbon Fibre Tripod C-258 + B-1 Head
Canon 10D EF 100mm 1:2.8 Macro Macro Ring Lite MR-14EX
imac 24" 2.8 Aperature II

ok been out trying more cameras and have got it down to the following two for me EP-3 and GH2. Just got to some more reading and will buy a camera hopefully this week so I can use it for a few weeks before going away on our trip.

_________________
Canon 50D
Canon EF-S 17-55 2.8
Tamron 18-270 mm
Canon 10-22mm lens
Canon 50 mm 1.4
Benro Carbon Fibre Tripod C-258 + B-1 Head
Canon 10D EF 100mm 1:2.8 Macro Macro Ring Lite MR-14EX
imac 24" 2.8 Aperature II

Now that you're considering a GH2, I feel comfortable commenting, but please forgive me for going back to the top of the thread:



The Oly 12mm f2.0 lens would seem to be a good fit, and it will work on Pany bodies. (I own one and use it on my cameras. (see sig.)) Or your current 10-22 can be mounted with an adapter--I do this with the EF lenses I have, in particular my Tokina 11-16--but it will be manual focus only and you will have to set aperture on your 50D.



The GH2 is generally considered to have the best video capability of any interchangeable lens still (photo) camera, and it can use Oly m4/3 lenses. Or if you're willing to sacrifice video quality for size, you might want to consider the GF3.



Again, those Oly primes are fully functional on the GH2. (I own and use two of them on my Pany bodies.) The only drawback is that Pany uses lens based stabilization, so any pics taken with Oly lenses (or Pany lenses without built-in stabilization) will not be stabilized. But situations where one might need stabilization on a fast/bright wide prime are relatively rare, IMO.



Do you happen to recall what shutter speed the camera selected? Given that the lens is relatively slow, especially at the long end, I could certainly see the camera choosing a long shutter speed indoors. In any case, note that the Pany 14-140 has O.I.S. built-in and it does indeed work.

HTH - Mark
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Panasonic GH1, GH2, (2) 14-140mm f4.0-5.8, 20mm f1.7, 25mm f1.4, 100-300mm f4.0-5.6
Olympus 12mm f2.0, 45mm f1.8
Canon 50mm f1.4, 85mm f1.8, 100mm f2.0, 135mm f2.0, 200mm f2.8
Tokina 11-16mm f2.8 (EF-S)

I have decided on either the GH2 or EP-3 with the following lenses:

GH2
with Pany 14-140
Olympus 45 1.8
Olympus 12 2.0
Olympus 9-18

Total cost approx $3960 Australian Dolars

or

EP-3
with VF2
Olympus 14-150
Olympus 45 1.8
Olympus 12 2.0
Olympus 9-18

Total cost approx $3740

So there is not much in the cost. I will have to also get extra batteries .

So what would you choose on the basis of image quality?

_________________
Canon 50D
Canon EF-S 17-55 2.8
Tamron 18-270 mm
Canon 10-22mm lens
Canon 50 mm 1.4
Benro Carbon Fibre Tripod C-258 + B-1 Head
Canon 10D EF 100mm 1:2.8 Macro Macro Ring Lite MR-14EX
imac 24" 2.8 Aperature II

While the GH2 may edge out the E-P3 in image quality, particularly when it comes to video, it's close enough that I really think you should base your decision on other factors. e.g. ergonomics. Although, adding the VF2 will negate some of the E-P3's size advantage. But I also seem to recall you praising the E-P3's panorama mode, which the GH2 doesn't have.

On the other hand, the GH2's screen is fully articulated, if that matters to you at all. (It's especially handy when shooting video, FYI.)

Bottom line: it's close enough that I think you'll do fine; just pick the one that feels right to you.

Mark

Ok the way I feel it is much of a muchness and I will be happy with either camera.

So down to batteries- I need lots and to last as long as possble. The genuine batteries are $$$$. So can you get good non-genuine batteries for either? I haven't had any luck chasing cheaper batteries for the GH2 - I am here in Australia but can order from anywhere. They EP-3 seems a little easier.
Whats your battery experience?

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Canon 50D
Canon EF-S 17-55 2.8
Tamron 18-270 mm
Canon 10-22mm lens
Canon 50 mm 1.4
Benro Carbon Fibre Tripod C-258 + B-1 Head
Canon 10D EF 100mm 1:2.8 Macro Macro Ring Lite MR-14EX
imac 24" 2.8 Aperature II

No experience with E-P3 batteries, sorry. But I do feel your pain with regard to GH2 batteries. Fortunately, I'm not usually far from an AC outlet, so I just rotate two batteries--one in camera, the other charging, then switch them. (Actually, I rotate three batteries, just to be safe. But I've never had a situation yet that I couldn't have gotten by with just two.)

If that won't work for you, there was some talk about a battery grip for the GH2, but I haven't kept up on the status.

And I know the GH1 hack allows the use of third party batteries. If you're comfortable hacking your GH2, the same might be true, but again, I don't know for sure since I just cycle two batteries. (And personally, I'm not real comfortable using cheap aftermarket products in sensitive electronic devices that I depend on.)

Or if you don't mind being "tethered", there's an AC adapter.

But if you really need 6+ hours without any type of AC power on a budget, this could be a good reason to go E-P3.

Mark

Well I bit the bullet today and bought the following:

Olympus PEN E-P3 Body Colour Black
Olympus 12mm f2.0 EW Ultra Wide Lens
Olypmus Zuiko Digital Micro 4/3 ED 9-18mm f/4.0 - f/5.6 lens)
Olympus M.Zuko Digital ED 14-150mm f/4.0 - f/5.6
Olympus 45mm f1.8 Lens PEN Zuiko
Hoya 52mm Circular Polarizer Pro 1D Filter (H52P1DTW)
Hoya 58mm Circular Polarizer Pro 1D Filter (H58P1DTW)
Olympus VF-2 Electronic Viewfinder Colour Black

Should arrive on Monday - will have about 3.5 weeks to familiarise my self before I head off to Nepal and Annapurna Base Camp!

Looking forward to playing with a lighter camera body. Thanks everyone who help contribute to my decision making process. Know doubt I will have a few questions when it arrives.
I will post pics from my trip.

_________________
Canon 50D
Canon EF-S 17-55 2.8
Tamron 18-270 mm
Canon 10-22mm lens
Canon 50 mm 1.4
Benro Carbon Fibre Tripod C-258 + B-1 Head
Canon 10D EF 100mm 1:2.8 Macro Macro Ring Lite MR-14EX
imac 24" 2.8 Aperature II

Well I am getting packed to go to Nepal. Off in 2 weeks. I have had only a small amount of time to play with E-P3. What I have found is that it is a great small package. Image quality is excellent up iso 1600.
The super panel provides fast access to all the settings. The manual is crap but we all have access to the Internet with so many tips. The settings and custom options seem huge at first but can soon be tamed.
The prime lenses are excellent .. I love the 12 mm to walk around with.
The 45 is also excellent.
The 9-18 zoom is a little disappointing in that I love really wide - used to using my 10-22 on a canon 50d. The olympus is 18mm vs the 16mm on the 50d. I perhaps should have gone with the panasonic 7-14. Any way I will see how it goes during my travels.
The 14-150 is also very good as a general travel zoom. Not quite as flexible as my Tamron 18-270 on my DSLR but still very good.
Battery life seems is much worse than a DSLR but I have bought heaps of cheap generic batteries.
The whole weight of my new kit is next to nothing. My feeling is that the primes will spend most their time on the camera.
Jpeg quality is excellent. Only thing I have changed is dropping the noise filter back to light. The jpegs are much better than what comes out of my 50D. So much so that I am going to shoot mainly jpeg except in crazy lighting. Even in those situations the camera does pretty well with the jpeg images. Olympus has done a great job with their jpeg algorithms.
There is a a lot to like about this camera. Even the touch screen works well and is more than a gimmick. It really allows amazing fast changes to focal point.
Glad I got the vf2. I found that I actually don't mind taking photos off the screen despite being a diehard optical viewfinder user. However I think the vf2 is essential in really bright light.
Things I don't like...tracking focus is crap-- I will keep my DSLR for sports.
High iso performance could be better but when you actually make prints and leave on screen pixel peeping behind there is bugger all between all the mirrorless cameras.
The vf2 increases camera bulk. It would be nice to have a built in evf.
So despite being a long time DSLR user I am pleasantly surprised how good the e-p3.
I think it nearly makes an ideal travel camera. I will write a comprehensive review of my travels with the camera with plenty of pics when I return. Again thanks to all who helped.

_________________
Canon 50D
Canon EF-S 17-55 2.8
Tamron 18-270 mm
Canon 10-22mm lens
Canon 50 mm 1.4
Benro Carbon Fibre Tripod C-258 + B-1 Head
Canon 10D EF 100mm 1:2.8 Macro Macro Ring Lite MR-14EX
imac 24" 2.8 Aperature II