Camera Labs

Hello everybody. i want to buy a camera and have two choice.
60d and d7000.
i´ve read Gordon´s reviews. But i´comfused about lenses.
i don´t need iso 6400 and above (i know, d7000 is better than 60d above 6400 iso)
i won´t need more than 2 seconds continuous shooting (so d7000´s buffer problem is also not important)
i have two candidates for each cameras.

1-Canon EOS 60D Kit 18-135mm IS
2-Canon EOS 60D Kit 17-85mm IS USM
3-Nikon D7000 Kit 18-200mm
4-Nikon D7000 Kit 18-105mm mm VR

There is only 70euro difference between cheapest and most expensive camera+lens . So money is not important in this decision.
i want to use my camera for general purpose and architectural photography. And i also want to get good results in night shooting, I know that there is not a lense that can success all this. But i m not looking for perfekt night shooting or perfekt makro photos. For every sutuations just very good photos, which you can´t take for example with bridge cameras. (not Perfect photos in every situation, i know it is impossible with one lens)

Thanks for all your comments.

Which body feels best in your hands? That's the one to go with.

Insofar as lenses are concerned, the Nikkor 18-105VR is vastly superior to the 18-200. I personally prefer the Canon 17-85 IS USM -- even though it doesn't have quite the long-end reach of the 18-135.

_________________
Olympus e-620 / 14-42mm / 40-150mm
Metz 48 AF-1
Kata 3-N-1 20, LowePro Orion Mini, LowePro Nova 2
My Flickr

one more thing, the camera won't take good photos if you don't know how to use it...
from my experience photos were actually worse than with compact until i learned how to use camera properly... and now :D

bout the cameras, get the one that feels better in hands, and than go to internet and choose the most suitable lens (for eg. you might like 135mm over the 85 mm at long end that would give you a bit more zoom, or 17mm over the 18 mm that will give you wider view (often used for architecture))

however if you go for nikon, beware of distorsion on the 18-105 (personal experience)
i can't comment on other lenses..

_________________
nikon d90 --->af-s dx 18-105mm; tamron 90mm macro

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Barrel distortion will be present on all the lenses identified by the op as they are all still lower-end lenses (although only the 18-55 VR Nikkor is truly a budget lens). For a first-timer, you should be fine as a starting point, though.

No question that you do need to go into this without the notion that a more expensive camera is going to produce better pictures. People take pictures, cameras are only a tool that they use.

_________________
Olympus e-620 / 14-42mm / 40-150mm
Metz 48 AF-1
Kata 3-N-1 20, LowePro Orion Mini, LowePro Nova 2
My Flickr

Thanks for your posts guys.
i´m buying my first DSLR. So i dont have experience. I´ve learnd fast everything buy reading reviews and comments in this forum. I want to thank again Gordon for this wonderfull website.

@jwnrw
Thanks for your comments.60D fells better in my hand. I like also articulated lcd. you think that 18-105VR is vastly superior to the 18-200. So in this point i have a question. (because i´m beginner you know) 18-105´s range is between 18-200. Or for example canon 18-55 lens is in 18-200. i mean you can shoot 18bis 55mm with a 18-200 or 18-135 lens. Why should i not buy always a lens with better zoom ? (i understand, when start with 17 not 18, it is different)

@bakica
Thanks.You have a good point. as you wrote "17mm over the 18 mm that will give you wider view." But does this 1mm make really a difference ? Until i buy wide angle lens (i dont know, maybe next month or next year) i want to shoot also good architecture photos. But between 15mm 17 mm or 18 mm, is there a big different ?

I think, with a program called DXO i can correct that distortion problems in pc. And does this USM make really a difference ? As i know, it makes quicklier focus.
And one last question. 17-85 had 4 aperture. I know this is not best lens for night shooting. But does it mean that, i can´t take any very good low light photos ? Only average photos or what ?
Thanks again guys.

you may also get a bit out of this
http://www.dslrtips.com/ and the lens buying guide.

If you can afford to stretch the budget to the 15-85. You will get an improvement in quality over the other lenses you have mentioned. The 15 mm on the wide angle is definitely noticeable.

If money was a consideration I would pick a 550D or 600D over the 60D and get the 15-85.

Then later consider some prime lenses with bigger aperture such as a 50 1.4 or 1.8 prime or 85 1.8 for low light work.

_________________
Canon Powershot S95, Canon 7D, 15-85, Canon 85 1.8 USM, Sigma 30 1.4, 50mm 1.8, Canon 100 2.8L IS Macro, Canon 70-300L IS USM+Kenko 1.4 Pro 300DGX, Canon 430EX II and RS 4 Classic

@maxjj
thanks.I think, i will buy a better lens in the future. And i´ve looked 15-85 before, it is one of my target. I know it is really good lens. But i cant change my camera. Because of that i want to buy 60d or d7000.

i´ve looked a video review of Gordon and capture this image that shows difference between 17mm and 18mm. i think 15 is really good. But i can´t give %50percent more money even for this great lens.

one thing you said about 135 and 105 and 55mm are all covered by 200mm of the longest lens, but there is a very good reason why shorter lenses are made..

you see mostly 18-200mm lenses are made to attract buyers with the sign 10xZOOM strapped to it, and stuff like that. people that buy those lenses either don't know much about photography, or they know much and have a very good reason for buying it..

the thing with 18-200mm lenses is that quality of the picture is often reduced so they can put in more zoom that will attract more buyers...
bear in mind that 18-200mm lenses are also bigger than 18-135 or any other shorter lenses with variable aperture..

on the topic, my advice:
it seems you know little about photography at this moment.. you should get 60d (it feels better for ya, right?) and 18-135 lens.. with it you got range to see what type of photography you like most.. maybe in future you will end as landscape artist and have buy ultra wide lens, or as wildlife photographer and buy an ultra long lens, or maybe a macro or portrait photographer and buy prime lens in 50-100 mm range, or anything, but this combination will get you started.. and after a few months you will know what is limiting you to get THE picture..

lastly, browse the forum.. you are going to learn a LOT here, especially from exif info on photographs :D

_________________
nikon d90 --->af-s dx 18-105mm; tamron 90mm macro

add me up on:

flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bakica/

deviant art:
http://tbensic.deviantart.com/

----:>bakice ce vladati svjetom<:----

Regarding lenses -- the 18-105VR is a Nikkor lens - so it's only for Nikon. The 17-85 is the Canon lens. Insofar as your question about purchasing a longer telephoto lens - the answer is simple -- longer budget lenses don't necessarily mean you are getting any better quality optics. Budget lenses tend to have distortion issues -- and the longer lenses are often worse then the shorter ones. You need to understand, that you are only starting -- you will definitely be looking to add to your lens collection over time. Lenses are by far the more expensive part of a photographic equipment investment, but if you choose and stick with a system, then you will be able to keep your lenses as you upgrade your bodies over time.

Personally, I find that the 18-105 Nikkor lens (again only if you are looking at a Nikon camera) is the best of all worlds as a first lens. Yes, it has some distortion at both ends of the zoom, but overall, it has good optical quality for the range and price point. Likewise, I find the Canon 17-85 to be a great first lens. The 18-55 lenses by both Canon and Nikon are actually pretty blah at best.

The other thing to remember is to consider the crop factor. The crop factor is the 35mm equivalent lens length. Nikon DSLRs have a crop factor of 1.5X and Canon has a crop factor of 1.6X. So -- the 18-105 VR lens is the equivalent of 27mm - 157.5mm. You can likewise do the math with any of the lenses you are considering.

But -- I must admit that one thing you said has made me wonder the reasoning behind the candidate cameras you are looking at. Both the 60D and the D7000 are mid-range cameras -- which, for a beginner could be quite daunting. Have you considered going for a lower level body, with better lens as a starting point? If you are new to photography at this level, you may get frustrated very quickly by running the risk of investing in too much camera as a starting point.

One way to help avert this, is to enroll in some photography classes first -- many classes let you borrow cameras or rent cameras as you get your feet wet in the hobby. I suppose in the end, if you have the budget, then I guess it makes some sense to spend more money -- but honestly, you may want to think about less body and more lens as a starting point rather then mid-range bodies and budget lenses. Just something to think about as you go through the purchase.

_________________
Olympus e-620 / 14-42mm / 40-150mm
Metz 48 AF-1
Kata 3-N-1 20, LowePro Orion Mini, LowePro Nova 2
My Flickr

@bakica
Thanks bakica. I´m thinking about 18-135 and 17-85. 1mm difference is not bad for architectural photography but there are 4 years difference between this two lenses. So even 17-85 has USM, i´m thinking about quality difference between this two lenses in same focal lenght.And 18-135 has 3.5aperture and i know it better for low light situations.

@jwnrw
Thanks jwnrw. Your comment make me think about the body. You are right. But you know, for a better body i can pay 300€ more. I wont feel regret. Articulated display for me important. And i can check picture quality better in Lcd display before i go to my home and take a look at my pc. I m sure that, with a lower body and better lens i can take better photos at the beginning. But i can learn very fast. if i like something. Because of that, i m sure, with alot of practice, i will manage to take good photos.

I m sure, i will buy my self at least one ultra wide lens and an ultra long lens (after i see moon photos of the members here ) but maybe take some time. But at the beginning i dont want to walk with 3-4lenses.
I think, i ´ll buy 60d and for lens,
1mm focal difference + USM against, +0,5 aperture and +2,5zoom.
But i don´t know whether image quality of this two lenses are same or not.

Be aware that even the best LCD screen will not give the same level of detail as you pc monitor will - so don't think you will be able to rely wholly on it for IQ. It is more useful to get a sense of framing, etc. However, if you learn to use the histrogram that will help you as well. Again - don't go thinking a good DSLR LCD will give you a full sense of the IQ of your shots.

I do agree that with you the swivel LCD makes for a considerably more convenient-to-use body. It happens to be one of the key reasons that I bought an e-620. My G3 had it, and I didn't want to give that feature up when I moved to a DSLR 2 years ago.

_________________
Olympus e-620 / 14-42mm / 40-150mm
Metz 48 AF-1
Kata 3-N-1 20, LowePro Orion Mini, LowePro Nova 2
My Flickr

In my opinion the 17-85mm is the best lens there. However definitely go to a store and try both the cameras out. Whichever you like the best, BUY!

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Camera: Canon 550D with battery grip
Lenses: Canon 24-105mm f/4L, Canon 50mm f1.4, Canon 18-55mm, Tamron 70-300mm,
Accessories: Manfrotto 055XPROB with 808RC4 head, Canon 430ex II speedlite, Lowepro Nova 180AW and Lowepro Pro Runner 450AW

Oh that is so lame, every hot girl who can aim a camera thinks she’s a photographer -Stewie Griffin

thanks guys for your all comments.
i´ve changed my mind and give some extra money and bought canon 60d + 15-85. i want to also thank Gordon for making great reviews to make my decision easier