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 Post subject: A Winter Canon
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:56 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:46 pm
Posts: 14
Hi all....looks a great forum :D

First post so let's hope that it's in the right thread :)

I do a fair bit of winter mountaineering & have, up till now, been using a fairly robust waterproof/freezeproof compact.

I'd now like to move on however to the big wide world of EXPENSIVE DSLR.

Budget doesn't stretch too far however & I've pretty much narrowed it down to either the Canon 7D or the Canon 6D.
(Please ignore the weatherproof lens issue meantime)

So which body would the panel recommend for outdoor shooting in all weathers but especially winter in Scotland? On my part I'm leaning towards the 7D but those out there might know better.


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 Post subject: Re: A Winter Canon
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:20 pm 
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Location: UK
The 7D has a degree of water resistance. It isn't water proof by a long shot. So far I've not been able to establish how the 6D compares in that respect.

The 7D has also worked well for me in sub-zero temperatures as we have done in past years before it started flooding instead.

I suspect the 6D would not be significantly different in that respect, so the choice probably should come down to what style of shooting you are likely to find yourself doing. The 6D and 7D are quite different in that respect. The 6D also has a few newer toys like remote control by wifi if memory serves me correctly, if that has any value for you.

For my personal uses, the 7D is still the ideal camera for me as a balance of factors, but my needs may not be the same as yours. When it comes to weather, I don't protect the camera (or lens) in light to moderate rain. This has caused problems with the rear joystick if I allow that to soak in for some hours, but all was fine again once it dried out. Likewise it functions ok in the cold although I've not taken it on an Antarctic expedition or anything like that. UK winter show certainly wasn't a problem.

_________________
Canon DSLRs: 7D, 5D2, 1D, 600D, 450D full spectrum, 300D IR mod
Lenses: EF 35/2, 50/1.8, 85/1.8, 135/2+SF, 28-80 V, 70-300L, 100-400L, TS-E 24/3.5L, MP-E 65, EF-S 15-85 IS
3rd party: Zeiss 2/50 makro, Samyang 8mm fisheye, Sigma 150 macro, 120-300 f/2.8 OS, Celestron 1325/13
Tinies: Sony HX9V.


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 Post subject: Re: A Winter Canon
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:30 pm 
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Thanks Popo. While I quite like the spec of the 6D the trouble is that I don't need yet another GPS & I'm unlikely to use Wifi. So I would probably be paying for toys that I don't need. My dilemma however is the age of the 7D. Do you reckon that is a problem or not?

Style of shooting. Landscapes mainly & the odd bit of wildlife. Unlikely however to need lots of frames per sec.

So it probably comes down to "robustness" first with probably good, reliable autofocus next but probably tying with good RAW images in poor light. I.e. Using beyond ISO 800.


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 Post subject: Re: A Winter Canon
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:57 pm 
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Location: UK
From memory I believe one of the selling points of the 6D is that the centre AF point was tuned to work in very low light levels. Having said that, I haven't had trouble with the 7D AF in low light that wasn't a problem for the exposure itself! (note: I don't use flash much). Otherwise, the 7D does have a more flexible AF system, but it does in part depend on what you want to do with it. Good enough image quality is a personal thing. I don't mind using the 7D at ISO3200. Some other people can't stand the noise even at low ISO. The 6D could offer an advantage there, at the limitation of a shallower depth of field.

I have and use both the 7D and 5Dmk2, which can be seen as a predecessor to the 6D as well as the mk3. In basic features the 5Dmk2 is close to the 6D. Bottom line is for a majority of shots, I can use either camera with minimal differences between them. The AF of the 7D may help more for moving wildlife subjects, whereas the shallower depth of field potential of the 5Dmk2 can help out there on the rare chance I dabble with it. Landscapes are not something I really do much myself, but I believe those who do it more seriously will often use a tripod so longer exposures in low light are not a problem to avoid the increased noise and reduced dynamic range from high ISO.

Used 7D are getting pretty low in price right now if you're not sure. Just get one from a reputable dealer so you have some backup. There is a rumour the successor to the 7D may come out this year, but it is only a rumour and no one outside Canon knows for sure. Even if it does come out, you can expect it to be much more expensive.

_________________
Canon DSLRs: 7D, 5D2, 1D, 600D, 450D full spectrum, 300D IR mod
Lenses: EF 35/2, 50/1.8, 85/1.8, 135/2+SF, 28-80 V, 70-300L, 100-400L, TS-E 24/3.5L, MP-E 65, EF-S 15-85 IS
3rd party: Zeiss 2/50 makro, Samyang 8mm fisheye, Sigma 150 macro, 120-300 f/2.8 OS, Celestron 1325/13
Tinies: Sony HX9V.


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 Post subject: Re: A Winter Canon
PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:27 am 
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Location: bit east of Melbourne
I have both the 7D and the 6D, I don`t think you can compare the two. The 6D makes indoor shots and low light shots a breeze, its center focus point is better than the 7D`s. The others have never caused me any issues either. Its great for Landscape and portrait. The 7D is still my go to for wildlife shots and poor weather conditions. But the two compliment each other nicely for what we do, but the 6D isn`t as robust or weather resistant.

I had a chat to Wolfsong a while ago about the 7D and 6D, he sometimes visits this forum, he took a couple of 6D`s and 7D`s out into the Canadian or Alaskan bush photographing bears. Its cold and wet and it really test the cameras out, if I remember right he had to take both 6D `s back with problems relating to moisture getting in, the 7D`s were fine.

Since the 6D is a bit smaller and lighter, it might be worth considering, but you need to look after it more.

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Canon Powershot S95, Canon 6D,7D, Canon 40 2.8 STM, Tamron 24-70 2.8 VC, Canon 17-40 L, Canon 15-85, Canon 85 1.8, Sigma 30 1.4, 50mm 1.8, Canon 100 2.8L Macro, Canon 70-300L +Kenko 1.4 Pro 300DGX, Canon 430EX II and RS 4 Classic


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 Post subject: Re: A Winter Canon
PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:11 pm 
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Thanks folks. With the way that the winter weather is going a tripod is probably more a liability rather than an asset. Wind, especially this year, is a major problem.

Interesting stuff about Wolfsong. He has colder temps but probably not the same amount of wet. His pics of the bears are to die for.

So at the moment it looks like the 7D might be in the lead.


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 Post subject: Re: A Winter Canon
PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:16 pm 
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Location: bit east of Melbourne
Its a great camera, what lenses have you got in mind?

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Canon Powershot S95, Canon 6D,7D, Canon 40 2.8 STM, Tamron 24-70 2.8 VC, Canon 17-40 L, Canon 15-85, Canon 85 1.8, Sigma 30 1.4, 50mm 1.8, Canon 100 2.8L Macro, Canon 70-300L +Kenko 1.4 Pro 300DGX, Canon 430EX II and RS 4 Classic


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 Post subject: Re: A Winter Canon
PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:36 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:46 pm
Posts: 14
Probably

1) Canon EF 24-70mm f/4L IS USM or
2) Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS USM
3) Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L IS USM

2.8 too expensive + too heavy + no stabilisation

Might go for a "standard" 50 but it depends on how the cash runs.


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 Post subject: Re: A Winter Canon
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:08 am 
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Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 12:48 pm
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Location: UK
Just note for the previously mentioned "Landscapes mainly & the odd bit of wildlife" you may need further consideration on lens choice.

For landscapes, none of those lenses will be particularly wide angle on a 7D. To complement them, there are the likes of the EF-S 10-22 or selection of similar 3rd party lenses. If you want to stick to affordable L lenses, there's the 17-40L which wont be nearly as wide, but will still be a fair bit wider than 24-.

The wildlife side, you may find yourself wanting more than 200mm too. If you stick with the 70-200L, you can get a 1.4x extender to get you up to 280mm. Personally I find adding/removing the extender in the field not to be fun, as it is another item to pay for and hold. For a similar price to a 70-200 with extender, you are in reach of the 70-300L and 100-400L. The former is more modern with better sealing, the latter obviously gives more reach but has much older IS and much less resistance. I find the 100-400L will ingest water if used unprotected in the rain for an hour or two, at which point it needs drying out before it works again.

For an idea of the cooler abuse I've put my kit through, see here. I got some wetter ones somewhere if that's interesting too.

_________________
Canon DSLRs: 7D, 5D2, 1D, 600D, 450D full spectrum, 300D IR mod
Lenses: EF 35/2, 50/1.8, 85/1.8, 135/2+SF, 28-80 V, 70-300L, 100-400L, TS-E 24/3.5L, MP-E 65, EF-S 15-85 IS
3rd party: Zeiss 2/50 makro, Samyang 8mm fisheye, Sigma 150 macro, 120-300 f/2.8 OS, Celestron 1325/13
Tinies: Sony HX9V.


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 Post subject: Re: A Winter Canon
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:25 am 
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Location: bit east of Melbourne
I would even suggest the 15-85 is usm, I have exposed it to rain and its not given me any grieve. Technically might not be an L lens, but its pretty good build. The 17-40 isn`t bad, but I don`t bother using it on the 7D and go for the 15-85, its a better lens.
The 24-105 is also nice, but like popo said hardly wide angle.

Instead of the standard 50, I get much more use out of a 30 1.4. I personally don`t like 50 on the 7D /APS-c sensor or if you don`t need large aperture, look at 40 2.8, its a gem.

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Canon Powershot S95, Canon 6D,7D, Canon 40 2.8 STM, Tamron 24-70 2.8 VC, Canon 17-40 L, Canon 15-85, Canon 85 1.8, Sigma 30 1.4, 50mm 1.8, Canon 100 2.8L Macro, Canon 70-300L +Kenko 1.4 Pro 300DGX, Canon 430EX II and RS 4 Classic


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 Post subject: Re: A Winter Canon
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:39 pm 
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Thanks guys. The trouble is that most of my winter stuff will be taken handheld & probably in bad light. I'd therefore ideally like some stabilisation built in. Going any lower than 24mm doesn't give me that. Well it does but not in a weatherproof version. I know that 24mm on a 7D isn't very wide but my thoughts are to go with this initially & once I've got some further readies to go for say a VERY wide Sigma or an EFS. Not weatherproof, of course, but it might be OK for normal (non wet) use.

The 300mm certainly looks very nice. A bit heavier but gets a good review. I'll have to think about that one.


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 Post subject: Re: A Winter Canon
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:47 pm 
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Posts: 900
Location: SE Texas
As already indicated, Wolfsong uses his 7D cameras in some fairly nasty weather, as does popo, which gives me confidence with my 7D cameras, though I try not to push my luck quite as far as conditions popo has documented.

Regarding lenses, you may wish to review the EXIF data of your existing images, to see how wide you prefer your focal lengths. Not all landscapes are shot at wide angles; some shooters prefer a more normal or tele angle of view.

As for wide Canon L zoom lenses, I do believe the 17-40L is weather-resistant, but the widest aperture being f/4 might be an issue for some, and there is no Image Stabilization, but not many wide lenses have Image Stabilization, anyway. The 16-35mm 2.8L II is weather-resistant, and has the wider aperture, but is quite heavy, comparatively, and also without IS. The pre-Mark II 16-35mm L is generally considered less good optically, but on a cropped-frame camera, the problematic edges and corners are not visible in the images, which has prompted me to seriously consider the original 16-35L, as I would mostly be using it with my weather-resistant cropped-frame 7D and 1D Mark II N cameras, anyway. (The 1D Mark II N has a 1.3x crop factor.)

The excellence of my EF-S 10-22mm has been one reason I have not yet acquired one of the two ultra-wide L zooms, though the desire for weather-resistance will prompt me to eventually acquire something usable on full-frame. I have not felt the need for Image Stabilization while using my 10-22mm, and I often shoot at night with it, hand-held, at up to 3200 ISO.

My comments on the Canon L lenses, above, and the third-party lenses, below, are based upon my internet research, as the only ultra-wide zoom I own is the Canon EF-S 10-22mm.

The current Sigma 12-24mm is spec'ed as "splash-resistant," and is compatible with full-frame cameras. The aperture is variable, and not wide. I do not recall if it is heavy. If I recall correctly, filters are not easy to use on this lens.

The Tokina 16-28mm is well-regarded by some, has a maximum constant f/2.8, but is quite heavy. The Tokina's mount is gasketed, but it is not spec'ed as weather/splash-resistant. Some shooters like the Tokina's flare characteristics, whereas others do not. Using filters on this one is definitely a challenge.

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Canon 7D/5D/40D/1D2N; Nikon F6, D700, FM3A, & Coolpix A; Canon 40mm 2.8 STM, 135L, 50L, 35L, 50mm 1.8 I, 100mm 2.8L Macro, 10-22mm EF-S, 28-135 EF, 400mm 5.6L; Nikkor 50mm 1.2 AI-S, 50mm 1.4G, 50mm 1.8D, 16mm 2.8D Fisheye, 180mm 2.8D, 100-300mm 5.6 AI-S, 18mm 2.8D, Voigtlander 90mm f/3.5 SL II


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 Post subject: Re: A Winter Nikon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:34 pm 
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Posts: 900
Location: SE Texas
If I may be so bold, the Nikon 16-35mm f/4 lens has VR, which is Vibration Reduction, the counterpart of Image Stabilization, plus some level of moisture-resistance, if not quite a "pro" build. This lens has a rather healthy rebate at present, at least in the USA. I am not sure whether Nikon-sponsored rebates tend to run concurrently in different regions of the world. If a Nikon camera is an acceptable alternative, the D7100 has a level of weather-resistance, spec'ed as equal to the D300s, if I recall correctly, though not a deep buffer for sports/action shooters who shoot large quantities of RAW images.

_________________
Canon 7D/5D/40D/1D2N; Nikon F6, D700, FM3A, & Coolpix A; Canon 40mm 2.8 STM, 135L, 50L, 35L, 50mm 1.8 I, 100mm 2.8L Macro, 10-22mm EF-S, 28-135 EF, 400mm 5.6L; Nikkor 50mm 1.2 AI-S, 50mm 1.4G, 50mm 1.8D, 16mm 2.8D Fisheye, 180mm 2.8D, 100-300mm 5.6 AI-S, 18mm 2.8D, Voigtlander 90mm f/3.5 SL II


Last edited by RexGig on Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A Winter Canon
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:58 pm 
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Location: UK
My tip would be, don't apply too much weight on any so called weather resistance. It isn't water tight. The question is, just how bad a situation are you actually going to really shoot in? And would it cope with that? You can buy all sorts of rain covers if needed, which are essentially custom plastic bags. People on the cheap actually do use plastic bags held in place with tape. I just take the other route of letting the rain fall where it wants without serious problems so far. At least, nothing that drying out at home couldn't fix.

_________________
Canon DSLRs: 7D, 5D2, 1D, 600D, 450D full spectrum, 300D IR mod
Lenses: EF 35/2, 50/1.8, 85/1.8, 135/2+SF, 28-80 V, 70-300L, 100-400L, TS-E 24/3.5L, MP-E 65, EF-S 15-85 IS
3rd party: Zeiss 2/50 makro, Samyang 8mm fisheye, Sigma 150 macro, 120-300 f/2.8 OS, Celestron 1325/13
Tinies: Sony HX9V.


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 Post subject: Re: A Winter Canon
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:44 am 
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A typical day might be say six hours. If it's a poor day then starting off in rain then sleet then snow with spindrift mixed in. Probably windy. Camera in & out of the bag throughout the day. Drive home say one to two hours. All my mountaineering gear can cope with that quite happily. If a "weatherproof" Canon EOS 7D with a "weatherproof" lens can't cope with that without some sort of wet getting in then from my point of view it isn't fit for purpose. :(

NOTES:
1) Considered Nikon (Not the AW1) but getting a "weatherproof" lens that didn't weigh a ton or cost a fortune was well nigh impossible.
2) Considered the Pentax K3. Handled one briefly & wasn't too keen on it.
3) Olympus. Already got a four thirds camera & don't really want another.
4) Canon 5D mk3. Not really affordable.
5) Covers/plastic bags not really practical.


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