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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 2:41 am 
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sebazvideo wrote:
Alright, but here's what I don't get. The Panasonic GH2, for example, is a DSRL that doesn't have the time limit.


Wrong on two counts:

1) It's not a DSLR, as there's no mirror (or prism) from whence the R (for "reflex").
2) EU models are indeed subject to the same EU tax law mentioned previously in this thread and thus are, in fact, limited to 30 minute takes.

And keep in mind that, as an owner of a GH2 (and GH1 before that), I'm biased toward the GH2 - Mark


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:42 am 
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The 5DIII has a heatsink to combat the heat issues from using video.
This is due to the mechanics of having a larger sensor.
Consequently, it can record just shy of 30 minutes at a time.

However, that is the 5DIII and not the 60D. I only brought it up in order to offer a comparison.
While I do not have a 60D, it seems from what you stated, the 60D is behaving normally, but may not meet your expectations.
The way I see it, you have two options:
1) Get a different camera to fit how you want to shoot.
2) Modify how you shoot to get the most out of your camera.

If you already returned the camera, you might want to consider renting other cameras to find the one you want.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 1:13 pm 
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I think being a part of the DSLR world gives us a bit of an attitude of "of course it's that way!", so when someone is surprised by the limitations or features of video when they aren't as immersed in this tech we have a bit of a knee-jerk reaction. I can say that working in the wedding photography business for the past year and a bit, along with following wedding cinematographers on Vimeo for a bit longer than that, DSLRs in the wedding world play a MUCH different role than a more-traditional video camera. I say that with respect to style and format... most video/cinematographers I've worked alongside have used multiple cameras when using DSLRs (usually 7Ds or 550/600Ds) and shoot within the 12 minute limit with amazing results.

If you're aiming to shoot continuously from single vantage points for the entire length of a ceremony, I think it's a matter of using the right tool for the job IMHO. At least from my personal perspective, the attractiveness of using a DSLR for wedding video specifically is the high quality/production value for little cost - Hollywood-esque visual appeal in a cheap package. And for that Hollywood visual appeal, there will be lots of cuts, so it's not unexpected I suppose to be shooting "short" cuts. Parking your camera at the back of the church on a tripod and hitting Record is a different job entirely (and this is me making sweeping generalizations here, I admit) which requires a different tool.

I definitely agree that if the 60D isn't going to be the tool you need/want then take that investment and make one that will help in the long run... or, continue using it and learn to work within and/or embrace the technical limitations within your style.

As a tangent thought, this might be the equivalent of the "prime vs zoom" discussion in terms of video... "I want to shoot forever" (zoom) vs "I don't mind clip length limitations" (prime)... And of course, all the pretention that comes with it ;)

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 4:14 pm 
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sebazvideo wrote:
If you read this posts after the first one he posted, you will see that he is very rude and arrogant, calling me names and labeling me as a beginner who doesn't know anything about video, when I have done it for 20 years. I will respect anyone who gives me their opinion and advice without resorting to cheap shots like calling me short sighted and other idiotic comments like that. I'm 41 years old, I'm not going to put up with people talking down on me.

And no, he didn't reply to my first question, which was simply if anybody could take their 60D for a couple of minutes, put it in auto exposure, and rotate it between a dark place and a bright place, and then let me know if they saw the frame skipping. I posted the same thing in four different forums, and only one guy in another forum was nice enough to do that for me.

While I didn't replicate the test with the camera, I did point out that any problem you have isn't necessarily a design flaw. Design and manufacturing flaws aren't one and the same.

I accept the labels in being called "assertive" and "sarcastic" but I'm hardly arrogant - I don't have an inflated sense of importance, self-worth or knowledge - there have been several mistakes I've made in the past here but I appreciated people's candour in correcting me. If you want to maintain that I'm arrogant because I'm not afraid to disagree, go ahead and keep things in that context, it's no skin off my nose. That you're 41 years old is of no consequence, I would have given the same response if you were 14 - this is the 21st century and age discrimination is something I don't agree with. I didn't call you a beginner nor did I say you knew nothing about video. I just made suggestions of how you could perhaps do things differently but if you see such suggestions as a threat to your tenure and understanding, feel free to take that stance.

Saying you were short-sighted was intended as a criticism but not in a denigrating or abusive sense. I was simply pointing out that you weren't thinking ahead or of the grand scheme of things. You were looking and videography solely in the context of recording weddnings, which may not be a drop in the ocean but it's not a large enough segment of videography for you to say it's how everything should work out generally - nobody's experience here is definitive or exhaustive of videography in general. As Plymer said, what you record with should be fit for purpose. If it's the case that you need a continuous and uniterrupted stream, DSLRs won't be fit for purpose because of "stupid laws" but that doesn't mean they're not fit for other purposes.

sebazvideo wrote:
I wasn't really complaining about the use of DSLRs for weddings, I was saying how it amazes me that so many videographers are using them despite the 12 minute problem.

As Plymer implied, there's nothing amazing or surprising about videographers using DSLRs despite the apparent limitations. Being a professional of your said tenure, you should surely know that there are parts of videography where scenes are is done in short segments of recording with lots of cutting, splicing and editing done to make the final video. As a result of the short segments being made, the 12-minute limit with HD recording may not be an obstacle. There are some cases where DSLRs are more practical to use regardless of the time limit because generally much smaller than professional-grade camcorders so for shooting in tight spaces, they do have their benefits e.g. parts of The Avengers were filmed with the Canon 7D and the 5D Mk II because it was difficult to use conventional camcorders due to their bulk though their lower cost, arguably making them more disposable, did play a role in that decision too.

sebazvideo wrote:
So, Rorschach, please stay out of this thread and any future threads I start. Thank you.

Pass.

Not to call you a fool but he who asks and is told may be a fool for five minutes but he who never asks or is never told may remain a fool forever.

By no means am I claiming to be an oracle capable of answering all of your questions (certainly not the case) but anybody who feels they can contribute should feel free to do so - that's one of the purposes of this forum - whether you like it or not. You don't ask for help then dictate terms of how your questions should be answered, nor for you dictate by whom they should be answered.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 5:09 pm 
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Hi folks,

And I thought it was just DSLR sensors that got overheated when asked to produce long and continuous bit streams. :lol:

I'll put my Moderator's hat on for this post and request that things are allowed to cool down a little please.

@Sebastian: I'm sorry that you've had the problem you describe and that the discussion got sidetracked, erroneously IMHO, into a discussion of EU duty. I know you'll not be feeling best disposed to our forum at the moment but if you'd care to share the answer to your original question when you do find out it would be a generous act. I hope you found a solution which didn't require sending the camera back.

Bob.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:17 pm 
Maestro wrote:
sebazvideo wrote:
Alright, but here's what I don't get. The Panasonic GH2, for example, is a DSRL that doesn't have the time limit.


Wrong on two counts:

1) It's not a DSLR, as there's no mirror (or prism) from whence the R (for "reflex").
2) EU models are indeed subject to the same EU tax law mentioned previously in this thread and thus are, in fact, limited to 30 minute takes.

And keep in mind that, as an owner of a GH2 (and GH1 before that), I'm biased toward the GH2 - Mark


OK, I thought it was a DSLR. But about the EU model, that's exactly what I was talking about. If Europe has a law that that type of camera can't record over 30 minutes, and Panasonic makes a model for Europe with that restriction and another for the US without the restriction, then it's possible to manufacture and market two different models. Then again there could be the heating problem, but I've been recording video outside almost non-stop for about an hour pressing the button whenever it stops recording and no heating problems, and we're having about 80 degrees and humid here in NC. So I guess that unless you're in Florida or Arizona, or maybe trying to record several hours, the heating is not too much of a problem.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:36 pm 
BleuDragon wrote:
However, that is the 5DIII and not the 60D. I only brought it up in order to offer a comparison.
While I do not have a 60D, it seems from what you stated, the 60D is behaving normally, but may not meet your expectations.
The way I see it, you have two options:
1) Get a different camera to fit how you want to shoot.
2) Modify how you shoot to get the most out of your camera.


Actually I didn't return it because they told me I have until the end of the week to send it back, so I could still send it on Friday. But I'll probably keep it because I've been taking a look at several videos on Vimeo and You Tube done with the GH2, and while it seems like a great camera, the picture quality doesn't seem to me as good as the 60D. While most people say it's sharper (which I can't really tell from those videos because they're way too compressed), the 60D is sharp enough for me and at least to me it looks more like film than video. The GH2 is more of a video look but with bokeh. Plus I don't really like the lens selection. The 60D came with a 18-200 mm that works great for most situations, and along with it I got a fixed 55mm/1.8 ap. lens that takes beautiful pictures and video with bokeh and it was a little over $100. The GH2 lens selection is rather expensive and I didn't see a 55mm/1.8 lens on their website, although there is probably some combination of adapters and other brands' lenses that can achieve that, but overall I kind of prefer the 60D. My plan wasn't to use it for weddings or events anyway. The clip length is just one of many disadvantages DSLRs have for weddings and other types of events, despite their great picture quality.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:40 pm 
Bob Andersson wrote:
I know you'll not be feeling best disposed to our forum at the moment but if you'd care to share the answer to your original question when you do find out it would be a generous act. I hope you found a solution which didn't require sending the camera back.


Hey Bob, actually I like the forum. One rude person doesn't ruin it for me. The rest of the people didn't resort to cheap shots to make their point. In fact, I saw said person made a long and probably boring reply today, and I didn't even bother reading it, although I read all the others and I appreciate the advice and effort.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 4:05 am 
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sebazvideo wrote:
If Europe has a law that that type of camera can't record over 30 minutes, and Panasonic makes a model for Europe with that restriction and another for the US without the restriction, then it's possible to manufacture and market two different models.


Yes, it's obviously possible. But Canon (and for the record, also Sony) doesn't think it's economically worthwhile to do so. If this bothers you--which it seems to since a few posts back you were looking for "a way to force that law to be repealed"--the way to show Canon (and Sony) that they are wrong would be return your 60D for a refund and buy a GH2. But I see from your following post that you've decided not to do that. :(

Quote:
Then again there could be the heating problem, but I've been recording video outside almost non-stop for about an hour pressing the button whenever it stops recording and no heating problems


This matches with everything else I've heard, in that, overheating is primarily a problem on the 7D because of its two DIGIC chips (read: more processing power) and more extensive weather sealing (read: less air circulation) (as opposed to the 60D's one DIGIC chip and less extensive weather sealing), and the 5D Mark II because of its larger sensor (again read: more processing power) and partial weather sealing. (And the 5DII generally only overheated in warm conditions--either air temperature or when sitting in direct sunlight.) (Also, for the record, Sony cameras have had overheating issues when shooting video while using IS due to the additional heat generated by the stabilizer.)

Quote:
the 60D ... to me it looks more like film than video. The GH2 is more of a video look but with bokeh.


Although I'm biased toward the GH2, I'm willing to bet that, when shooting the same scene under the same conditions with the same settings, there will be no discernible difference (with the possible exception of moire in the Canon footage :twisted: ). My guess is that the video look in those clips is due to the GH2 shooting 60i, not 24p, which would obviously not be a fair comparison with a 60D shooting 24p.

Quote:
I got a fixed 55mm/1.8 ap. lens that takes beautiful pictures and video with bokeh and it was a little over $100. The GH2 lens selection is rather expensive and I didn't see a 55mm/1.8 lens on their website, although there is probably some combination of adapters and other brands' lenses that can achieve that


Yes, an EF to m4/3 adapter will allow you to use any EF lens--including your (what I suspect is a) 50mm, not 55mm lens--on a GH2. (I actually have a Canon 50mm f1.8 that use on my GH2 in exactly this way.) The catch being that any EF lenses used this way will be manual focus and you won't be able to adjust aperture. But it's not like you have AF while shooting video on the 60D, anyway. And if you want a slower aperture, there are several native m4/3 lenses available (some of which will even AF quickly and quietly while shooting video).

Further, there's the Olympus 45mm f1.8 which is pretty close to the Canon 50mm f1.8 However, you're correct that the Oly lens costs roughly three times what the Canon does.

Mark


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 8:22 am 
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sebazvideo wrote:
If Europe has a law that that type of camera can't record over 30 minutes, and Panasonic makes a model for Europe with that restriction and another for the US without the restriction, then it's possible to manufacture and market two different models.

Yes, that's true but for the reasons explained earlier, making separate models comes down to economies of scale. Evidently with Canon, they don't think it's financially viable to do so.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 10:49 am 
Maestro wrote:
sebazvideo wrote:
Yes, an EF to m4/3 adapter will allow you to use any EF lens--including your (what I suspect is a) 50mm, not 55mm lens--on a GH2. (I actually have a Canon 50mm f1.8 that use on my GH2 in exactly this way.) The catch being that any EF lenses used this way will be manual focus and you won't be able to adjust aperture. But it's not like you have AF while shooting video on the 60D, anyway. And if you want a slower aperture, there are several native m4/3 lenses available (some of which will even AF quickly and quietly while shooting video).

Further, there's the Olympus 45mm f1.8 which is pretty close to the Canon 50mm f1.8 However, you're correct that the Oly lens costs roughly three times what the Canon does.


Thanks, Mark. Would you be able to shoot about 20 seconds of an outdoor view, preferably with people on it, in 1080 24p and upload the raw clip somewhere so I can at least get a better comparison? I keep reading how the GH2 is better than even the 5D Mark II and III for video, and the moire thing is more than evident. The only thing I keep seeing in clips on Vimeo is that the 60D has better color overall, especially better skin tones. This video, for example: https://vimeo.com/27301872 makes evident that the GH2 has better resolution, however when it gets to the girl, while the GH2 shows her hair and freckles with better detail, her skin tone looks better in the 60D footage. I know probably I can set a YUV curve and 3 way CC preset in Edius to take care of this, but if you could upload a few seconds of footage in 1080 24p in its RAW output, that would make it easier to decide, since I could drop it on an Edius timeline and see if I can get a nice skin tone. Any of those free file sharing sites could do, like http://www.4shared.com/ and similar.

Thanks,

Sebastian


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:09 am 
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My schedule is kinda full this weekend, but I'll see what I can do. No promises, tho. Besides, instead of grading 4:2:0 8-bit color in post, I'd rather get it right--or at least closer--in camera by using another Film Mode. I'm partial to Natural for skin tone and Smooth for most other things. Or occasionally Nostalgic with a slightly tweaked WB. But I almost never shoot Cinema like they did for that video, as it clips highlights really harshly, which means you're better off underexposing, which means you lose shadow detail.

Mark


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:33 am 
Maestro wrote:
My schedule is kinda full this weekend, but I'll see what I can do. No promises, tho. Besides, instead of grading 4:2:0 8-bit color in post, I'd rather get it right--or at least closer--in camera by using another Film Mode. I'm partial to Natural for skin tone and Smooth for most other things. Or occasionally Nostalgic with a slightly tweaked WB. But I almost never shoot Cinema like they did for that video, as it clips highlights really harshly, which means you're better off underexposing, which means you lose shadow detail.


Thanks Mark, I would really appreciate it. Actually it would be better if you could record a few seconds in the standard picture profile, so I can compare that to the standard profile in the Canon. I'm especially interested in skin color, any face will do.

Actually another thing I'm wondering now if it's any different is not so much the picture quality. I noticed that when I zoom in and out, even when I have everything in manual, the exposure changes in steps at different focal lengths. At one point I thought I knew what it was: since the lens is 18-200mm and the aperture goes from 3.5 to 5.6, as I was moving the zoom ring the aperture would close in steps, so I thought it would be as easy as setting the aperture manually on the lowest of the two values, so it would be the same aperture from 18 to 200mm and it wouldn't change. So I set it to 5.6 and I zoomed in and out, but it still does the same thing. It sucks because even if I have the camera on a tripod and I do a very smooth zoom by turning the ring, it's useless because I have these exposure changes in steps. Is this normal, is it because of the camera or this particular lens? In that case, is there any other lens (that is not to expensive) that will keep the same exposure at all focal lengths as long as the aperture is set manually to the lowest level?

Thanks


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:08 pm 
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I am owner of 60D, and i would like to help but i have no idea what your question was.

Was this while shooting stills, making video or shooting stills while making video? Please explain what were you tryuing to achieve in more detail, so maybe i could try it myself if you still need it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:54 pm 
Maestro wrote:
My schedule is kinda full this weekend, but I'll see what I can do. No promises, tho. Besides, instead of grading 4:2:0 8-bit color in post, I'd rather get it right--or at least closer--in camera by using another Film Mode. I'm partial to Natural for skin tone and Smooth for most other things. Or occasionally Nostalgic with a slightly tweaked WB. But I almost never shoot Cinema like they did for that video, as it clips highlights really harshly, which means you're better off underexposing, which means you lose shadow detail.

Mark


Hey Mark, actually don't worry about it. I had until today to send the Canon back since they had extended the RMA, but when I had to make the final decision I couldn't send it back. Even if the GH2 seems better for video in theory, the Canon produces colors that I really like, that look more cinematic, and I know that maybe I could find to make the GH2 match the Canon in post, but I didn't like the idea of having to do that every time I edit footage. Plus the one thing I read everywhere is that the 60D is better for photos, and I also bought it for that. Perhaps at some point I will get a GH2 is I have some extra money to spend.


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