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 Post subject: 5D mk2 versus 40D
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:28 am 
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On the face of it an unfair comparison. However for many like me who have a 40D and are looking to upgrade it is not such a rediculous comparison. The 40D is an excellent camera which is now 4 years old. The problem is that the 5D mk2 is also about 4 years old in it's design with features which are now 4 years old. Gordon compares the 40D to the 5D mk1 but the following compared it to the 5D mk2:

http://ppusa.wordpress.com/2009/05/12/c ... d-mark-ii/

The ppusa comparison was done over two years ago.

The 5D mk2 falls short in areas now improved significantly in later cameras like the 7D, especially in autofocus. The 1D X seems to deal with this but at a much higher price point and the 7D has been out for some years now itself.

Hopefully the 5D mk3 will bring Canon up to date in the semi pro market but there are only rumours out there and no actual evidence of anything. I am not about spend a lot of money on a camera which is 4 years old and clearly falls short in some areas.

It may be able to produce excellent pictures but you have to be able to unlock that ability. The 7D does it and that is already quite old. I am looking for a full frame camera with the ability to allow the photographer to easily take excellent photos without having a degree in photography.

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Canon 6D, EF 24-105 f/4L IS USM, EF 70-200 f/4L IS USM, Speedlite 430EX II.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:01 am 
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I really dislike using the word "professional" because of its ambiguity but with the 5D being aimed at the semi-pro/pro market, I would imagine there's some expectation that the tog would be familiar with all of the settings and how to compose their picture or at the very least be willing to spend considerable time learning how to do so.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:28 am 
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That is the professionals point of view. Why make things simpler when I have gone to all this trouble to learn my trade? I disagree. I think modern technology allows for cameras to be made easier to use and easier to create good pictures with less knowledge.

You will always need knowledge of what light, etc. makes a good photo but it is not now necessary to make cameras so complicated you need to 'spend considerable time learning how to do so'.

The 7D has better autofocus features than the 5D mk2. It is easier to create better photos with the 7D autofocus than the 5D mk2 autofocus. Why make it difficult when it is not necessary?

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Canon 40D, EF-S 17-85mm IS USM, EF 70-300 IS USM, EF 50mm f/1.4, EF-S 10-22mm.
Canon 6D, EF 24-105 f/4L IS USM, EF 70-200 f/4L IS USM, Speedlite 430EX II.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:10 pm 
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Hi Stuart,

I made the jump from 40D to 5D2 just as soon as the 5D2 was released and never regretted it. With the 5D3 pretty much a shoe-in for 2012 if I were in your shoes I'd hang on to the 40D for a while. It's not impossible that the 5D3 will ship with essentially the same sensor as the 1DX (18MP) and with all the modern ergonomics and a new walk-around lens you'll be set for the next four years. 8)

Bob.

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Olympus OM-D E-M1 + M.Zuiko Digital ED 12-40mm f/2.8, Lumix 7-14mm f/4, Leica DG Summilux 15mm f/1.7 ASPH, M.Zuiko Digital 45mm 1:1.8, M.Zuiko Digital ED 75mm 1:1.8.
Leica D Vario-Elmar 14mm-150mm f/3.5 - f/5.6 ASPH.
OM-D E-M5, H-PS14042E, Gitzo GT1541T, Arca-Swiss Z1 DP ball-head.
Astrophotography: TEC 140 'scope, FLI ML16803 camera, ASA DDM60 Pro mount.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:48 pm 
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stuart wrote:
That is the professionals point of view. Why make things simpler when I have gone to all this trouble to learn my trade? I disagree. I think modern technology allows for cameras to be made easier to use and easier to create good pictures with less knowledge.

Perhaps it is a professional's point of view but that is also the point of view from an enthusiast who only does photography for fun. I don't find the 5D Mk2 significantly more complicated than my 550D but I guess I'm the type of person who's happy to learn how to use a product and not expect it to be dumbed down.

stuart wrote:
The 7D has better autofocus features than the 5D mk2. It is easier to create better photos with the 7D autofocus than the 5D mk2 autofocus. Why make it difficult when it is not necessary?

Who was questioning the 7D's superior AF? You're making a counter-argument to an argument nobody started. The 7D was launched about a year after the 5D Mk2, not to mention that it was aimed in a slightly different market space. Despite your opening post, I'm not sure there is a worthy comparison between them.

The one comment I will disagree with you on is saying that you're not always guaranteed better photos with the superior AF of the 7D. If you're doing sports photography, yes the 7D will probably be far superior but if you're doing a photo of a flower and want to blur the background and surroundings, the 5D Mk2 will probably be better suited due to its larger sensor being able to attain a shallower DoF.

Granted, I do think there are marketing reasons why the 5D Mk2's AF isn't as good as the 1D series but I think saying it was made difficult is an unjust statement as there is a difference between something being difficult to use and being made difficult to use.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:14 pm 
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Quote:
Who was questioning the 7D's superior AF? You're making a counter-argument to an argument nobody started.


I believe I started it but not in the way you infer. The 7D makes it easier to focus accurately and therefore makes it easier to create better photos. The 7D has been available now for some years already.

My point was concerning buying a 5D mk2 when the 7D is already out there as a better camera and has been for some time. After all the 5D mk2 is (in my opinion) a step up from the 7D as it is full frame.

I realise that many would say that crop frame DSLR's are just different and not a step down. However my first good camera was the Olympus OM2 back in 1980. That was a (full frame) 35mm camera. To me a crop frame camera is a step down, although the latest crop frame cameras are very good. In fact the 40D is one of them and I would agree with Bob. I just put the question on the comparison with the 5D mk2.

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Canon 6D, EF 24-105 f/4L IS USM, EF 70-200 f/4L IS USM, Speedlite 430EX II.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:25 pm 
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Cropped-frame is not necessarily a step down. Some VERY serious birders consider the 7D the best camera in the world for their particular needs, at this point in time.

On professionals, one of my local instructors is, as far as I know, still using his 40D as his DSLR. He shoots some images with a Mamiya film camera in either large- or medium-format film, as a studio camera, so, of course, a 40D does not meet ALL of his needs, just his DSLR needs. If I recall correctly, he said, about a year ago, that he planned to wait and see if the 5D2's successor had a particular feature, and if so, he would consider a FF DSLR purchase, then. (I do not recall the particular feature.)

I am not a professional photographer, though I do shoot digital images for very serious (evidentiary) purposes in my role as a licensed, professional public servant. (I could request that my responsibilities as a photographer be passed to a colleague.) I do endeavor to record the most "professional" images possible, within my skill level and budget. In hindsight, my 40D is not obsolete. I could have postponed my 7D purchases, and waited for the successor to the 5D2, following my instructor's plan.

This is not to say that a 7D is not an upgrade. Due to better control of noise, and better AWB, a 7D performs better without flash at night and in low light, especially outdoors with mixed sources of artificial light. I do not shoot enough sports and action, perhaps, to need better AF than that offered by the 40D, and I do not yet have the long lenses needed to see how much
better the 7D's AF performs with wild birds.

I wish I better understood the "degree in photography" part. Does a camera require the little emblems on the dial, showing the flower, athlete, and such, to be considered "easy" to use? I certainly do not have a degree in photography, and never used those settings.

I was not intimidated by my 7D. I found it a joy to use, from the beginning. A 5D2's controls are very close to those of the 7D. A 5D2 does not have a Q button, but it is a relatively straightforward task to program the SET button to perform the same task as the Q button. Handling a 5D2, in a camera shop, is, for me, quite familiar.

As the release of the 5D2's successor seems imminent, I would be inclined to wait and see its specs, before buying anything else, such as a 5D2. I would really like the benefit of a second memory card slot, and see if low-light performance has been improved.

This is not intended as advice, just food for thought.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:33 am 
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Quote:
I wish I better understood the "degree in photography" part.


It's more a figure of speech. Such things are sometimes lost on 'english' speakers from other lands. Although I suspect you know that. :)

Quote:
Cropped-frame is not necessarily a step down.


As I said. Although, again, you know that. :)

I think I am probably having a little rant caused by my frustration that a 5D is not available with the latest facilities. Even the 7D is better and that is some years old already.

I know that many will say that Nikon may make the camera I am looking for but I already have Canon lenses and am not about to invest in a whole new set of identical lenses.

Oh well (sigh) let's wait and see what the 5D mk3 may bring. :?

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Canon 40D, EF-S 17-85mm IS USM, EF 70-300 IS USM, EF 50mm f/1.4, EF-S 10-22mm.
Canon 6D, EF 24-105 f/4L IS USM, EF 70-200 f/4L IS USM, Speedlite 430EX II.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:50 am 
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stuart wrote:
Oh well (sigh) let's wait and see what the 5D mk3 may bring. :?

That's the spirit. :twisted:

And if you bought something now then a few years down the line it would be out of date a year sooner! :lol:

I hope, on your behalf, that the 5D3 is announced at CES/PMA rather than having to wait for Photokina.

Bob.

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Olympus OM-D E-M1 + M.Zuiko Digital ED 12-40mm f/2.8, Lumix 7-14mm f/4, Leica DG Summilux 15mm f/1.7 ASPH, M.Zuiko Digital 45mm 1:1.8, M.Zuiko Digital ED 75mm 1:1.8.
Leica D Vario-Elmar 14mm-150mm f/3.5 - f/5.6 ASPH.
OM-D E-M5, H-PS14042E, Gitzo GT1541T, Arca-Swiss Z1 DP ball-head.
Astrophotography: TEC 140 'scope, FLI ML16803 camera, ASA DDM60 Pro mount.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:19 pm 
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The 1DX has features that really do make me want to wait and see what the 5D2's successor will offer. If, instead, I am disappointed, well, then will be the time to choose between the 5D2 and the alternatives, or, of course, sit and wait for a bit, while continuing to use my 7D and 40D digital cameras, and film Nikons. (35mm film being, of course, full-frame!) Life is good!

:)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:33 pm 
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Personally I don't think the 5D3 will be worse than the 5D2 in any aspect. Maybe resolution, although the difference between 18 and 21 MP isn't that extreme.

5.616 Pixel × 3.744 (5D2) vs. 5.184 × 3.456 Pixel (7D as a 18MP comparison)

BUT in the beginning there will be a huge price difference. The price of the 5D2 is just falling like hell and it will fall further as soon as the 5D3 will be announced / released. I have about no money at the moment so maybe I can afford a (used) 5D2 and start saving my money for a 5D3 then. :D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:35 pm 
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Jiko, I am sure the 5D3, or 6D, or whatever I is called, will indeed be an improvement, but will the improvements cater more to the video crowd, or to those who shoot still images? I remain totally uninterested in video.

The 1DX causes me to salivate, but the cost puts it out of reach until well beyond 2013, if ever. It would be good to see at least some of the 1DX's low-light ability trickle-down to the 5D level. While my images do not directly earn money for me, the desire to record the best low-light images, while on duty, helps me to justify the cost of a 5D/D700-level full-frame-sensor camera.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:35 pm 
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RexGig wrote:
Jiko, I am sure the 5D3, or 6D, or whatever I is called, will indeed be an improvement, but will the improvements cater more to the video crowd, or to those who shoot still images? I remain totally uninterested in video.

I don't know how far they could improve the 5D2's video mode without improving things that have an positive affect on stills as well. For example low light performance affects both stills and video. I don't think in any way that improved video features can have any negative affects on stills* - and I think that the video capabilities of the 5D2 are so good that there isn't much they could improve in a newer version (apart from a better sensor and maybe 60fps 1080p. Yes, personally I'm interested in video indeed.).
Other things they could improve is the weather sealing (pushing it that little bit to the 7D level).

*unless they start using translucent mirrors like Sony for autofocus - I doubt that will happen.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:18 am 
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My concern is that Canon might add something like a flip-out, articulating LCD, and up the mega-pixels, and then, to meet a price point, skimp on something like weather-sealing and/or micro-focus adjustment, as Canon did with the 60D. That is what I meant by catering to the video crowd. Not that MP or an articulating LCD are bad, but will something be subtracted to compensate?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:23 am 
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I know Canon make videocameras as well. I had one some years ago. The video feature is useful but why so much emphasis on it for a camera which is not a videocamera? I agree. Make it a good still camera. Any video benefits should be a bonus and not a major feature to sell the camera.

It is interesting that Canon seems to be increasing the difference between their cameras for portrait/landscape cameras and action cameras but is intent on giving us video features. The 7D has good autofocus for action photography but Canon seem content on a somewhat lesser autofocus system on the 5D mk2. The frames per second for each is also somewhat different for their set roles. The 1D X goes some way to change this but it is in a much higher price range.

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