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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:36 pm 
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I'll turn it around. If I were to ask you if you want something extra for free and has no other negative impact, would you say no?

No additional hardware is required to implement mirror flip or contrast live view, with the possible exception of a dedicated body button for ease of switching modes. Or more likely recycle another button programmable as such. I know of no good technical reason not to do it. Not doing it is throwing away useful functionality that would cost practically nothing to implement.

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Canon DSLRs: 7D, 5D2, 1D, 600D, 450D full spectrum, 300D IR mod
Lenses: EF 35/2, 50/1.8, 85/1.8, 135/2+SF, 28-80 V, 70-300L, 100-400L, TS-E 24/3.5L, MP-E 65, EF-S 15-85 IS
3rd party: Zeiss 2/50 makro, Samyang 8mm fisheye, Sigma 150 macro, 120-300 f/2.8 OS, Celestron 1325/13
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:02 am 
I think Sony made a clear choise, the camera is aimed at professional studiophotographers and amateur landscapephotographers (like me). We never leave the house without a sturdy tripod and we also take some time for post processing with neat image or noise ninja. But we do care for fine details. Live view is not very important and it is better to leave it than to implement it like Pentax did. Now I hope for weathersealing of the optics like Olympus. If they handle this, my bank account is lost!!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:53 am 
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Peter wrote:
I think Sony made a clear choise, the camera is aimed at professional studiophotographers and amateur landscapephotographers (like me). We never leave the house without a sturdy tripod and we also take some time for post processing with neat image or noise ninja. But we do care for fine details. Live view is not very important and it is better to leave it than to implement it like Pentax did. Now I hope for weathersealing of the optics like Olympus. If they handle this, my bank account is lost!!


If Sony wants to get the position in the market they intend to take, why not bring a broader feature pack that appeals to a broader group?

Aiming at a specific group is fine when your market share and your product-line is large enough to afford it. In this case, I still can't see why Sony has missed out on this one.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:28 am 
Gordon Laing wrote:
I still think the lack of Live View is a mistake. Some genuinely want or need it, while another group who compare specs will see a big gap where it's missing. They're alienating an increasing number of potential buyers with this approach. It may not be enough to put someone off buying it in isolation, but combined with other niggles, it could certainly be.

I think we all understand a similar mechanism to the A300 / A350 wouldn't be possible in the A900 - and it was definitely the right decision to fit a 100% optical viewfinder. But a mirror-flip solution would be possible, and as explained in our reviews of the A300 / A350, this does have some accuracy benefits which I'm sure would be appreciated by some of the A900's target audience.

Product or macro photographers for example appreciate the magnified manual focus assistance in live view, and it's also useful for displaying a live feed to a monitor to show to clients in a studio environment.

I also don't believe the size or resolution of the sensor is an issue as they decided not to do it with the A700 either. It's a marketing decision.

They might look down on Live View, but why risk losing potential customers by not including it?


Couldn't agree more! A poll on Dyxum shows that only 26% thinks live view is a must have on the A900 but I think this only show how loyal Dyxum users are to Sonys decision. Live view seems to be the norm on new cameras so it's really hard to understand why Sony released a new camera without it. I could live without it but only because I'm invested in a-mount lenses.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:38 pm 
The LV like a300 and a350 yes, but the other concept for me don´t give advantage...

Sony is working in LV a300/a350 concept for a900 from different view through a new AF sensor with LV capability and the QuickLV in a300/a350 and future is the Sony signature and I just hope is Sony will put LV in semiPro and Pro camere it come faster and easy to use.
Now the Intelligent Preview could help some user in its work maybe fast and useful.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:08 pm 
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Wow, lots of discussion missed the last few hours. Here's what I think, and it's NOT to support Sony's decision in any way, just my personal beliefs:
"Live view on a professional body is not neccessary."

Do I think it's strange Sony didn't implement mirror flip-up live view in the A900? Yes, I do. However, strange, in this case, does not mean wrong. Sony's being different, not wrong. For me, there could be nothing better than a large, bright viewfinder that covers 100%, and only for very specific situations, like low- and high-angle photography, would live view be something I'd like to have. Then, however, the camera would need a flip-out screen as well, which, in my eyes, should be on a pro body. Again, just my opinion, don't shoot me for it. :)

I think everybody needs to consider how much they'd use live view before saying the A900 lacks it. I've handled the A350 a few times, both times using LV to try it out, and I must say, I didn't really like it. Sure, in some situations it's very useful, in unusual angles and linked to a computer (I think one of the 40D's greatest features), but I wouldn't use it in daily life. A viewfinder is just a way better option for that.

To conclude, may I make clear that this is a pro camera. I'm sure lots of the Sony/other users here on the forum would like to have one, and possibly buy one as well. However, most won't. You need to look at this issue from a professional point-of-view. Would a pro use live view? Specific kinds of pro's, possibly. But professional photographers will go for maximum quality as much as they can, and the viewfinder offers that quality, not the LV.

Hope my post didn't seem too attacking or unfriendly. Just sharing my opinion, which is what we're supposed to do. I don't mind others having different opinions and blaming Sony for not integrating LV in the A900.

- Bjorn -

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:11 pm 
The advantage of a bright viewfinder is that it doesn't eat batterypower, live view does and sometimes even a lot. None of my camera's even have autofocus, and my pictures are well focused for 99% of the time.

I dont think in terms of must have's on a camerabody. My Leica R body's doesn't have features and it is a joy to use them.
If you can't do it proper, than please don't do it at all. Must have's on a camera for me don't exist, a camera is not a playstation.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:55 pm 
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Yes, 20 years ago people also made great pictures...;) That's one way to look at it. But one cannot deny that digital photograpy is also about bringing new tools to accomplish tasks that were either impossible or more difficult earlier. It allows for greater creativity. As long as these tools don't get in the way of conventional shooting (like one can easily ignore mirror-flip up in practice), there isn't a good reason to omit functions that people have grown accustomed to.

IMHO :twisted:

Also, Sony specifically unveiled the A900 as an enthousiast camera. So hobbyists are still target audience.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:39 pm 
I guess that a person with a 20 years of experience in photography can have other demands for cameraspecs than a person whose first camera is a digital slr. :wink:

But for shooting a good image in fact you only need to set four parameters: distance, shutterspeed, f-number and ISO. When you realize this, it shouldn’t be too difficult to make camera’s which have less than 40-50 buttons. But no; people want the latest gadgets so they can drown into menus instead of concentrating on the image. I understand they feel comfortable in this. But for me it doesn’t make any sense.

Best regard, Peter


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:30 pm 
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To me, Live view is a redundant feature as well. I never used it on an old Powershot that I used to own either, I just don’t see how you could get a precise shot with it.
But “video recording” like on the new D90 would be fun.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:00 pm 
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For anyone who can't see an application for Live View, where it can be genuinely superior to using an OVF, please check out my astrophotography video with the 40D. Specialist application I know, but it was made considerably easier with Live View.

http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Canon ... aphy.shtml

So it's not just about holding a DSLR out in front of your face like a compact - LV really does have other, very useful benefits - and I should also note this sort of application is not possible with LV on the A300 / A350 as they don't show you what the actual sensor is 'seeing'.

Gordon


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:21 pm 
They show you the same thing that your eye would see through the OVF and is perfectly comparable with the AF in other cameras. The 10% less in the visual field is not very significative and many OVF in many DSLR just show the 95%. The LCD tilting and AF phase detetion could be more useful for astronomy photograpy.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:16 pm 
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Those who like doing astro-photography are gonna have to buy a Canon then :) . Simple solution. If you really need the LV for kinds of photography like that, than don't buy the Sony. Don't complain about it not having LV, just look for another brand.
Too bad though if you have Sony/Zeiss/Minolta glass... :) A second body could be an option? Having money for the A900 likely means there's enough money to get the 40D for astro-photography, if you're very much in to that.

- Bjorn -

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:39 pm 
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Bjorn has kinda summarised the situation as I see it, but I'm looking from the switching side. Effectively Sony has said there is no future for me with them. If we extrapolate from what is known about the 50D to the 5D mk II, the 5D Mk II will not only catch A900 but likely pass it at a not dissimilar price point.

And even if you're buying at the bottom end, you might look at the top end to see where things are going. I think the lack of LV on A900 could have a small but real impact at the low end too.

The feature that swung me away from the 450D to the A350 was live view. The same feature (lack thereof) is what might push me the other way going ahead. At least lenses are easily sold without much deprecation should it come to that later.

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Canon DSLRs: 7D, 5D2, 1D, 600D, 450D full spectrum, 300D IR mod
Lenses: EF 35/2, 50/1.8, 85/1.8, 135/2+SF, 28-80 V, 70-300L, 100-400L, TS-E 24/3.5L, MP-E 65, EF-S 15-85 IS
3rd party: Zeiss 2/50 makro, Samyang 8mm fisheye, Sigma 150 macro, 120-300 f/2.8 OS, Celestron 1325/13
Tinies: Sony HX9V.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:54 pm 
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I think what Gordon meant to do is to give just one, not the only, practical example of the possibilities of live-view.

I can imagine other practical examples, like macro-photography in awkward positions or precision focussing using the magnification on the LCD. These are not 'playstation'-applications imho.

Off course one could switch brand, but that is exactly why one should ask why Sony didn't put live-view inside this flagship model like its major competitors are doing right now. Sony doesn't benefit from people changing brand. "If you don't like it, go to the store next door" is unlikely the smartest marketing strategy.

It isn't immediately a complaint. First of all it is questioning Sony's strategy on a market they are trying to conquer. As Nikons/Canons live view implementations don't interfere with conventional OVF shooting, I frankly don't see 'Sony taking the conventional (pro) approach by leaving it out' as an argument.

But I'll give it a rest now ;)

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