Free Shipping on ALL Products
camera reviewsbest cameraslens reviewsphotography tipscamera forumvideo toursphotography bookssupport me
It is currently Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:07 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Slight problem .....
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:25 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Munich, Germany
Hello everyone,

I have been an enthusiastic leica M user all my life. The introduction of the M8 has opened my eyes towards digital photography, but personally I found the M8 way to expensive.

For the past weeks I have been reading the reviews on various digital SLR's, I went to shop to actually touch and feel them etc. I can't seem to come up with a model that suits all my needs.

What I would want is:

- Solid body that can withstand a few bangs here and there
- Good quality glass, fast glass.... prime lenses
- High ISO rendition say a good to perfect 1600
- In body anti-shake thing
- Spot metering

The Nikon and Canon D30 - D80/D200 are solid, but don't have a high ISO rendition, or anti-shake thingie, the Pentax K10d has the anti shake but not a very good high ISO, nor does the Sony, the olympus 510 doesn't have fast lenses.... and isn't available yet, nor do I know anything about the 4:3 standard ....

The pentax K10d would be my choice however the high ISO thing is essential for me since I only shoot low-light. maybe it's overdone in the reviews but the camera I would wnat is a solid camera, good 1600 rendition, in-body anti-shake, good light-metering structures .... This combination doesnÄt seem to be available, or does it?

I'm just thinking of the shots I could take with a perfect 1600 iso, in body anti-shake, a 35mm 1.4 lens .... this combination would be awsome for me

BTW. I mostly shoot indoors architecture and art, 70% details and often in places where tripods are not allowed.....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:43 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:08 pm
Posts: 7896
Location: Germany
Hi Cornelius,

from your article it seems to be clear, that you place the highest priority on high quality available light freehand pics.
Thre factures are supporting you in your qest:
(1) a large high quality sensor combined with a camera electronic that doesn't smear details while it reduces "blotting" at high ISO
(2) anti shake
(3) wide aperture prime lenses

Let's start with (3): You can get 24/35/50/85mm/f1.4 prime lenses for almost every system: Nikon, Canon, Sony,... so this is not a prob
BUT those lenses don't come with image stab!

Re (2): People say that inbody anti-shake is not as effectiv as lens-based anti-shake. Let's assume that lens-based anti shake is 2..4x more effective than body-based. So f1.4 lens plus in-body anti-shake is approx. as stable as a f2.8 lens with lens-based anti-shake. BUT the IS-lenses from Canon with f2.8 aperture are quite costly. With the Nikon VR-lenses with f2.8 or brighter the situation is similar with the exception of the wonderful 105mm VR macro that is around 750EUR.
Normal IS/VR-lenses start with an aperture of f3.5 or f4.

As to (1):
Rule 1: The bigger the sensor the better the high-ISO-quality (HIQ). That's the laws of physics: Bigger sensors get more light - it's as simple as that. So in theory a full format sensor like that of a canon EOS 1Ds or 5D gets double the light of a Nikon D80 or D200 sensor. In praxis the effect might amount to more than 1EV delta because the photo-cells on the chip also have some boundaries between them that could not be shrunk proportionally.
Rule 2: not all sensor/processor combinations with the same sensor yield the same HIQ. See Sony A100 vs. Nikon D80: same sensor, but better HIQ with the D80. So you have to compare all CameraLabs sections on noise for the cameras you're interested in.

After having done this extensively I decided to get the D80 with VR-lenses and am happy with it. I have done quite a few shots at ISO 1600 and I love the filmlike grain of this cam. I try to dig out some pictures that can prove my point...
Image Image
www.flickr.com/photos/38912116@N00/477304005
www.flickr.com/photos/38912116@N00/477295362

_________________
Thomas (beware: Nikon-fanboy and moderator!) My Lens Reviews, My Pictures, My Photography Blog
D800+assorted lenses


Last edited by Thomas on Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 10:40 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:32 pm
Posts: 9952
Location: Queenstown, New Zealand
Hi Cornelius, welcome to the Cameralabs forums!

Hmmm, no digital SLR is perfect at 1600 ISO, but some are certainly better than others. If you've already rejected the Canon 30D / Nikon D80 / D200 / Pentax K10D line of cameras as being too noisy at 1600 ISO, then the only way to go is full-frame.

This means a Canon 5D or 1Ds Mark II. They're not cheap, but they're the only DSLRs with superior high ISO performance to the ones you've already mentioned. And as luck would have it, Canon also does some very nice wide angle primes with f1.4 aperture - namely the 24mm and 35mm L models. Again not cheap, but a 5D with a 35mm f1.4 sure is a nice combo - albeit without stabilisation. The Canon 24-105mm L zoom is a great stabilised option though, but has a maximum aperture of f4.

You could also wait and see how the forthcoming Olympus E-510 performs, but while this has in-camera stabilisation, I suspect its noise levels will be similar to the 30D / D80 type of cameras.

So I think you'll have to choose between low noise without in-camera stabilisation, or in-camera stabilisation with worse noise. As Thomas says though, lens-based stabilisation seems to work better, so a Canon 5D with a stabilised lens (or a super-fast prime) would be my recommendation.

Gordon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:25 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Munich, Germany
I tried a 5D extensively today. The full frame is a nice feature, however I think the full frame technology might not of grown up yet. The color rendition I got looked very lickable.... apart from that I find the price of 2300€ to high. I also tried the 30D which I must say I am really impressed with, also at high ISO (1600) The 400d felt really cheap, didn't even look at further.
I still have this thing with Nikon however, the D80 seems nicely priced for what you get. I dropped the Pentax and Sony off the shortlist for lack of lenses, this compared to Canon and Nikon.

I have now decided to go for VR (nikon) or IS (canon) lenses, I like the Nikon D80 with 17-55 2.8 and the 70-200 2.8 VR, although a rather expensive investment.....

I like the Canon D30 with the 70-200 4.0L IS and the 24-70 2.8 this will be cheaper than the Nikon, but will also miss a bit of "wide" also the 30D is slightly outdated.

As far as I see it I think i would use a 70-200mm 80% of the time, the other stuff would be mostly family and holiday things .... most of which I will still do with my Leica M and film, or my beloved wife' digicam. So from this perspective i would go for the Nikon 70-200 VR which seems like a really good lens (quality wise) and will suit my needs, for 80% at least. Depending on how I fare with digital I can always see what shorter lens I would be interested in...... budget wise I could then easily go for the D200 instead of the 80, thus bringing my "might be" choice to the D200 and the 70-200 2.8 VR ......

Perhaps get the sigma 30mm 1.4 to go with it ....

I liked the Canon 70-200 4.0 IF which stopped down the whole way, thus 4.0 made excellently sharp images, they didn't have the 2.8 for me to test, but the sales guy told me I might need to stop down 1 stop to get chrystal clear images

All makes sense no ? :-))

So still contemplating, I will most definately let you know what i decide..


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:35 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:08 pm
Posts: 7896
Location: Germany
Yeah, the AF-s 70-200mm f2.8 VR is certainly a pretty lens, if you can afford it! It's 1 to 2 stops brighter than the 18-200mm f3.5-5.6 VR.
And it sure is of high quality, see here: www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/70200vr.htm

_________________
Thomas (beware: Nikon-fanboy and moderator!) My Lens Reviews, My Pictures, My Photography Blog
D800+assorted lenses


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 7:34 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:25 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Munich, Germany
I have come to a descision after having slept over the whole matter, and I actually do need a camera sooner or later. Later today I will order the Nikon D200 and the 80-200 2.8 VR I will also get the Sigma 30mm 1.4 (if my favorite Photodealer has a good version that is) They have them all in stock so I will be able to pick them up tomorrow morning, for today is a holiday here in bavaria. I chose for the 200 for the build quality, I tend to crash and bang my cameras from time to time and the D200' build quality is slightly better than the D80 and only cost 300€ more. I will also be getting a battery grip with it, 2 x 4gb high speed cards and another back-up battery. I will do my post processing work on CS2 which is allready installed on my Mac and PC (I used it in the past for my scanned slides and film). As a first test I will duplicate images I have made with my leica M and see what the differences are and how to deal with them. I will also be testing some profiles for the sort of photography work I do. So the next coming weeks or so I shall be busy figuring thing out and getting "digitalized" Thanks for the comments, excellent site (and very friendly compared to others) I will be visiting on a regular basis to tell you about my progress, if any........


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 2:46 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:08 pm
Posts: 7896
Location: Germany
Whoa, that was a quick decision!

If you look at other people deciding to go DSLR, they are quite confused about the wealth of information that is available for all the cameras. Perhaps they don't have as clear priorities as you from which to decide.

So I take it, you think the D200 makes good high-ISO pics and together with VR and bright lenses alows the sort of available light shots that you like. Did you have a chance to test the high-ISO quality personally with a subject of your liking? Or was it something else that was the major decisive factor?

_________________
Thomas (beware: Nikon-fanboy and moderator!) My Lens Reviews, My Pictures, My Photography Blog
D800+assorted lenses


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 3:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:25 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Munich, Germany
The d200 can stand a "bang" it feels a bit more solid than the D80, I didn't see any difference in the high ISO images. with the 2.8 VR I think I can shoot good scenes at 400 and definately at 800, seeing that all my subject are very static (and have been for over 300 and more) I will however be checking out various noise reduction programs for 1600 ISO shots for at 1600 there is some visible noise, but the detail was still there.

As for a fast choice, one has to make one sometime ..... and I'm long overdue in the digital process so it's about time i started.

As for carrying stretchers for walks .... It's the Bavarian "Starckbier" that started all this :-)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 10:37 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:32 pm
Posts: 9952
Location: Queenstown, New Zealand
Hi Cornelius, congratulations on your D200 purchase - I hope you'll be very happy with it. Let us know how you get on! And if you find good noise reductiojn software, please reveal all in our software section! I used to use Noise Ninja some time ago and found it quite effective, but things have probably moved on since then...

Gordon


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

All words, images, videos and layout, copyright 2005-2012 Gordon Laing. May not be used without permission.
/ How we test / Best Cameras / Advertising / Camera reviews / Supporting Camera Labs

Webdesign by Alphabase IT
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group